The war in Iran, amicus brief on birthright citizenship, and the Oscars
Heidi, Daniel, and David explore whether or not we are, in fact, at war (we are), and whether or not the US should continue to recognize birthright citizenship (we should). Then, in the third segment, David and Heidi try to figure out how we can find time to watch more movies, because Dan has seen them all.
INTRO
Heidi’s trip to Caldwell University
Loyola Chicago event on Peace and Reconciliation
March 21st event at Seminary Co-Op in Hyde Park, Chicago
SEGMENT 1 - THE IRAN WAR
Timeline of the attacks and Iranian responses
Pope Leo XIV’s remarks against the conflict
Cardinal Cupich’s letter
Is this a war? A distinction without a difference
The role of diplomacy
The spillover and threat of escalation
President Trump’s casual approach to the casualties
Heidi’s reporting on apocalyptic language
SEGMENT 2 - AMICUS BRIEF ON BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP
A list of recent USCCB amicus briefs
The text of the 14th amendment
Ken Burns documentary
“The New Colossus,” by Emma Lazarus
SEGMENT 3 - THE OSCARS
The list of best picture nominees
Come See Me in the Good Light, about Andrea Gibson
TRANSCRIPT
INTRO
DAULT: Hello and welcome to the Francis Effect Podcast. My name is David Dalt. I host a radio show called Things Not Seen about Culture and Faith, and I'm an assistant professor for now of Catholic Spirituality at the Institute of Pastoral Studies at Loyola University Chicago. I'm here with my friends Heidi Schlump and Dan Horan.
Heidi is senior correspondent at Commonwealth Magazine. She is also an award-winning journalist and part-time faculty member at Loyola University Chicago. Dan is Professor of Philosophy, religious studies and theology at St. Mary's College in Notre Dame, Indiana. He's also a regular columnist at National Catholic Reporter.
Every couple of weeks we get together to discuss news and events through a lens of our shared Catholic faith. Dan and Heidi. Welcome to you both. Heidi. How have you been?
SCHLUMPF: I've been busy, but a good kind of busy and it's good to see both of you and to connect and talk about some of the things that are coming up. I had a wonderful trip to Caldwell, New Jersey, to Caldwell University and, it's almost like I paid her. But a woman, Jane she's a lay Franciscan, I think in the community there, gave a big shout out to the podcast during the q and a.
And over the weekend I was at an event at Loyola University here in Chicago on peace and reconciliation. That was just excellent. And a number of folks including, I'm gonna give a shout out to Charlotte. Who also came up, a lot of friends of the podcast who have been telling me how much they've been enjoying this season, so that's always great feedback to get.
You know, it feels like a spring day here in Chicago. I've already been on my first walk and so it's giving me like a little spring in my step. I don't know, the news continues to be bad, but I'm trying to focus on like the little daily practices of joy. And my work at Commonwealth continues to go well.
I just finished up a couple bigger stories that'll run in future. Months and so yeah, it's great to see you guys again. And Dan, how are you?
HORAN: I'm doing well. Life is good. It is a busy time of year, but this is the respite that all academics long for. I know students are excited about spring break or midterm break. If they have a long break like we do in the tri-campus at Notre Dame, St. Mary's and Holy Cross College, then they can travel, go home or go on some trip with friends or something like that.
But we faculty also desperately like to have that time to recharge and to step away from the grading and the, you know, the. Wear and tear of the daily grind. So I'm actually joining the podcast from Boston and like Chicagoland, it is spring here. I went for a morning run along the Charles.
And it's always so great to be with so many people who are actually training for the Boston Marathon. I lived here for many years, and so it's a great running town. And so that's always really pleasant and it's gonna be like a balmy 65 degrees this afternoon. And so. We might be moving past spring right into summer, which is so typical in these tumultuous global climate challenging times.
But I'm looking ahead also to next week where I'm really excited to be with two thirds of the Francis Effect podcast in Hyde Park. And that is joining our dear friend here, David Dolt at the seminary co-op in Hyde Park. On March 21st to talk about your excellent book, the Accessorized Bible. So maybe that's a great way to pass the baton to you.
David. What's going on besides that? I know that's happening.
DAULT: That, and I'm looking forward to that. I have also been out for a morning walk before our recording today, so I'm also feeling a little bit of spring in my step. I was over at the seminary co-op over the weekend picking up a book the collected poems of Neruda just because that was on my radar.
But as I was standing outside the bookstore, somebody walked up to me and said. Are you George Lucas? And it was very strange because I had just recently trimmed my beard and I'm a person who, you know, doesn't exactly have a double chin, but doesn't exactly not have a double chin. And I wear kind of glasses and my hair is a little wild on top.
And so this is not the first time that this has happened to me, but it's always amusing when it happens. But I just want to tell everyone, no, I'm not George Lucas. I am not. If I
HORAN: It's a bummer. 'cause if you.
DAULT: If I was George Lucas, the second two trilogies would've happened very differently anyway, so, but I'm really looking forward to the to the event on the 21st.
I'm delighted for that. I'm also really excited because I'm in the second week of my Lenin lecture series on queer theology, and that is going very well. Last week's session was, I think, really an interesting mix of. People.
And also you never quite know when you're first giving a first lecture in a series, kind of where to pitch things. And I got some feedback that some of the things that I did were right on the money, and some of the things were a little too highfalutin. So I'm I'm adjusting my remarks for the next several lectures as a result.
Just wanting to have things be very tactile and to be very accessible to people of all levels of knowledge about these subjects. And like you, Dan, I'm just finishing my spring break and getting back into the last few weeks of the semester, and so looking forward to all of that, but also very much looking forward to the summer because I got word that I have been approved for advancement to associate professor and I will be
granted tenure. And that will happen on the 1st of July. So I'm not quite in the position where I can refer to myself as an associate professor or with tenure yet, but it is now as officially on the horizon as it can be and minus the earth blowing up. I have that to look forward to in the summer. So,
HORAN: even.
Well, if the earth blows up, you have other problems.
SCHLUMPF: Yes. And don't say that we're too close to that. Hey, I just wanna add to, I'm gonna make it my, I'm gonna do my best to make it three thirds of the Francis Effect down in Hyde
HORAN: All right.
SCHLUMPF: I don't have anything on my calendar. I'm really gonna try to get down there 'cause I wanna see this too.
DAULT: Ha.
HORAN: could do a yeah. Flash mob of Francis Effect fans out there to support David. That'd be great.
DAULT: Well, thank you for that. And listeners, if you are in the Chicago area, there will be information about this in the show notes for this episode. Speaking of this episode let's look at what's coming up. We, in our first segment, we're gonna be talking about the war in Iran.
And all that has unfolded so quickly in the last couple of weeks. In our second segment, we're gonna be looking at the recent amicus brief. Given by the bishops about birthright citizenship. And in our third segment, we're gonna be turning our eyes to more enjoyable matters. We'll be looking at the upcoming Oscars, and getting a little bit of pop culture here in the mix as well.
So all that is coming up here on the Francis Effect. Please stay with us.
SEGMENT 1
SCHLUMPF: Welcome back to The Francis Effect. I'm Heidi Schlump and I'm here with Dan Horan and David Dal. Every couple of weeks we get together to discuss a variety of topics from a perspective informed by our shared Catholic faith. A lot has happened since our last episode. On the last day of February, president Donald Trump gave the order to launch operation Epic Fury in coordination with the Israeli Air Force.
The US began a series of missile strikes and bombing raids against a variety of targets and infrastructure in Iran.
The first wave of strikes led to the deaths of Supreme leader, Ali Kni and other high ranking officials. Alongside that early military success, there is growing evidence that an American cruise missile struck a civilian compound described in reports as a girl's school leading to the deaths of 175 students and staff.
Response from the Iranian military was Swift. Iran latched retaliatory missile and drone strikes against Israel, the UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia. In many cases, these strikes were directed at American military bases and other assets in the region as exchanges continued into early March, Iranian missile and drone strikes targeted and reportedly destroyed critical long range radar systems in the Middle East, belonging to the US and Allied Forces, specifically in Jordan, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates.
Pope Leo spoke out strongly against the conflict during his Sunday Angelus on March 8th saying. Quote, let us raise our humble prayer to the Lord that the roar of bombs may cease, that weapons may fall silent, and that space may be opened for dialogue in which the voices of peoples can be heard. Closer to home.
Chicago, Cardinal Blaze Soup. Issued a statement titled A Call to Conscience in which he condemned not only the violence of the conflict, but also the way the United States government has seemed to treat the conflict like a kind of video game. The Cardinal wrote quote, our government is treating the suffering of the Iranian people as a backdrop for our own entertainment, as if it's just another piece of content to be swiped through while we're waiting in line at the grocery store.
But in the end, we lose our humanity. When we are thrilled by the destructive power of our military, we become addicted to the spectacle of explosions, and the price of this habit is almost unnoticeable as we become desensitized to the true costs of war unquote. As of this recording, it has just been announced that Moaba Km, the son of the S slain Ali Km has just been named as successor to the Supreme Leader. We also have reports that at least seven US military personnel have been killed by Iranian attacks and a United Nations Envoy reports that at least 1300 Iranian civilians have been killed as a result of US and Israeli attacks in the region.
The Strait of Horus is effectively closed and oil production and transportation has been affected leading to rising oil prices. David, there is a lot to be looking at here. Where do you think we should start?
DAULT: Well, the place unfortunately to start is, is this even a war? Because we have at this point a great deal of ambiguity around the legality of these actions. President Donald Trump keeps referring to it as a war, but when congressional leadership has been pressed on this matter for their oversight because constitutionally only Congress can declare war they have been more, sort of fuzzy on the matter. And they are both at the same time treating this as not a technical war. And at the same time, certain congressional members are saying, well, now that we're in the war, we have to be committed to the war, or we have to be committed to our troops. And so we have uh, I guess Schrodinger's war happening right now where it both is and is not.
And so that's one piece to look at here. But the other piece is just that. It almost arose sort of overnight out of whole cloth that we were suddenly bombing this other country. Now, certainly there had been murmurings of this, but what we have come to find out is that at the same time that there were murmurings and Sabre Rattlings about the war, about the war, about the war, that there was diplomacy happening at the highest levels.
So that war could be avoided diplomacy that included, again, a return to nuclear negotiations. And one of the main reasons that has been given for all the strikes is to decapitate, Iran's nuclear ability. But that was already in the process of being renegotiated even after in the previous Trump administration, he decimated the negotiations that had already occurred and were already effectively in place.
And I know that some listeners may uh, push back against that. I work on nuclear security issues. I've been watching the Iranian nuclear negotiations very carefully for the last almost decade. the regime of sanctions, the regime of oversight was working.
It was taken away. And even in the absence of it, it seemed as if, from all the reports that I've been getting, the Iranians were still coming back to the table, willing to negotiate and willing to say, we will not have nuclear weapons. We will not use these resources to create weapons of mass destruction.
So those are the two places that I would start is, you know, diplomacy was working and is this even a war?
HORAN: David, you bring up a fair point about is this even a war? But if, I may just like push back a little bit, not necessarily at you, but against this conversation more broadly. I think it's a semantic issue. It's a, you know, a distinction without difference. I'm reminded of other violent conflicts that would otherwise be.
Considered a war that America has been involved in decades past. I think of the Vietnam War, which is internally described as the Vietnam conflict, right? There are these euphemistic ways of kind of brushing over, and debating about what do we call this thing when in fact there are military, strikes that are taking place, there are people who are dying. There's violence that's unfolding. And while the Vietnam War is quite different than what's happening now, right. There was congressional support for it, not unlike Iraq and Afghanistan. But what we see here is, you know, it is a war. You know, it's a war by any other name.
Right. I think what I'm deeply disturbed by as is I believe. The vast majority of the world and certainly the citizens of the United States who do not support this, who did not ask for this the Trump administration did not have a mandate for this, is that this is a purely impulsive action. To your point, David, about ongoing diplomatic dialogues you know, there is no good faith effort to take this.
Path, seriously, a nonviolent path. And I think a couple things, you know, I'm mourning like so many others are, the death and violence, the destruction we're seeing, the destabilization of the region, right? Is Israel has seen this as a green light then to go and start bombing other perceived enemies in the area.
And this is a domino effect that quite frankly, and I don't mean to sound. Sort of alarmist or hysterical, but I'm thinking of World War I and how one little assassination of one minor European leader spilled over very quickly into a horrific years long. Deeply destructive world conflict that exploded across the globe.
This is not limited to the Middle East, it's not limited to Iran. This is not an isolated incident. We've seen a destabilization in the Middle East. We see threats reaching over the Mediterranean, toward Europe, especially toward Eastern Europe. And you know, Turkey, as of the recording this morning, confirmed that NATO missiles are shooting down Iranian missiles heading.
Toward Turkey, heading towards Cyprus, heading toward Eastern Europe. And then we're seeing the spillover, if not maybe on this continent here in North America where we're recording from in terms of violence or direct missile threats, we're seeing the destabilization of the global financial system.
And so whether you identify as a capitalist or not, our world moves and is intertwined in these ways. The price of oil going from $70 a barrel a week ago to over a hundred today. Throws all kinds of things into chaos, far worse than Trump's other impulsivity, like the tariffs. So I would just say two other things or highlight two other things that are on my mind.
And this is, you know, it's a confederacy of completely impulsive, unserious, erratic actors in Trump and Netanyahu. These are two men who have a lot of things in common, the highest being that they're deeply arrogant and self-centered and shortsighted. Na Netanyahu has been obviously engaging in violent actions using horrifically, in my opinion, the cover of the horrific tragedy of October 7th, attacks as justification for his ongoing persecution and genocidal behavior and less people forget before those attacks by Hamas on October 7th.
Netanyahu was facing criminal charges himself in his own country, deeply unpopular. This is a distraction, you know, it is a way to avoid facing consequences. And Trump is in the exact same boat. He has never been more unpopular. We have the release of the Epstein files. We have excellent journalistic coverage like NPR highlighting that there's continues to be a coverup to protect Donald Trump from consequences, social or even perhaps criminal.
And so. I just have to say like, I can't think of anything more. I, I, I actually think this is gonna sound kind of ridiculous, but if I may, maybe in anticipation of our conversation about movies in the third segment, make a reference back to the Dark Night. This is joker like behavior, and actually I don't know that the Joker would be this impulsive as a fictional character with this kind of real life, real world consequences.
I'm really upset about this. If you couldn't tell this nurse.
SCHLUMPF: Well, Dan, I am too. And not just the starting of the war, but the way that Trump has been so cavalier about you know, the repercussions. The deaths of service people. You know, people were noticing how casual he was even yesterday as the bodies were returned. It's just shocking some of the things that he said he hasn't ruled out, you know, that there might be strikes on us soil, you know, though.
And then he just kind of cavalierly says, oh, these things happen in war. It's unfortunate. And I know from hearing from people in the military that they are taking notice of this, that clearly that the seriousness of war is not being considered, nor are their lives. And what strikes me is that, I mean, other people have made this comparison that at least with the Iraq war, they took the effort to lie to us to make a case for war and.
Trump doesn't even seem, and the administration doesn't even seem to feel the need to do that. So last, before spring break, you know, the, in my last class that I was teaching, we were on the topic of war and Peace, and we were going through the principles of the just war. You know, theory and just war criteria for war for going to war and for engaging in war.
And I was thinking about how, you know, not only are those not being engaged in any way by very, except out in the pages of some Catholic publications, but like Trump doesn't even feel the need to engage in any. Need to justify any criteria for war. But certainly, I mean, even in more conservative Catholic publications, people are writing that just war criteria.
There's not even a chance that they apply here. Not to mention once we got into the war and like attacking civilians in a girl's school, but no proportionality, no just cause no. Going to Congress for legitimate authority. And really not only no reasonable hope of success, but no reasonable like plan beyond the first bombs.
I mean, it's shocking to think that such, such a lack of preparedness about something so serious, it really is so cavalier about the dignity of human life. You, as you can tell David, I'm also orain, I'm also very upset about this.
HORAN: I mean, I think you bring up a really good point too. I mean, here's a look behind the curtains or how the sausage is made, or pick your metaphor. But last week I thought about writing a column along these lines, and I ultimately convinced myself it wasn't worth it because even somebody not familiar with Catholic Moral theology and the just war criteria could see that there is abs.
This was not a just war right in, in a way that. Even 20 something years ago, I think of, you know, the conservative Catholic writer, George Weigel made a very famous and very stupid argument in the now kind of alt-right publication, first things, then it was a respected conservative Catholic publication, but he tried in the Iraq evasion to justify this according to just work criteria Famously.
In contradiction to the sitting Pope at the time, John Paul ii, for whom he was his official biographer. So it was a really twisted time. But you don't even see a George Weigel character today trying to make a case 'cause it's so outrageous. And I think, Heidi, you're spot on there. And it's really disturbing when people who would make a claim about the an ostensible justification for preemptive strikes against Iraq, you know, 20, 20 something years ago, aren't even gonna bother to try to make sense of this today.
DAULT: Well, I, to to piggyback on that this notion of just war theory, that's actually a kind of developed line of thought that we can talk to, we can talk about and we can look at a good track record of debates on moral theology about that. I want to ask the both of you about another set of reports that have arisen that.
At military colleges and among the rank and file, there have been a lot of use of kind of weaponized narratives about this is the battle of Armageddon. This is the beginning of the return of Christ. And that is not normally a way that most Catholics sort of talk about this. That is more in line of kind of the fundamentalist sort of Tim Lehe branch of the Christian community.
But I'm wondering how seriously should we be taking these sorts of. Reports about these narratives being utilized in our military as a way of motivating a certain type of lust for battle. I'm just interested in your takes on that.
HORAN: Well, David, I would say you should take the danger seriously, the risk, seriously. But the internal logic is unserious at its ex, at its most base level this notion of Armageddon or sort of. Inaugurating the kind of second coming of Christ is the most absurd and anti-Christian thing that anyone could ever say.
And I'll just raise one point, which is, who the hell do we think we are as human creatures dependent on a loving God to force God's hand. Now is the time. It's gonna be March, 2026. This is the end of creation. We're gonna usher in some sort of Armageddon, some sort of like cosmic battle. The arrogance, the hubris, and actually the heresy is really striking.
So that's all I have to say about it. I mean, there's not much more to say because it's absurd on its face and yet. Absurdity is exactly what we see unfolding here, right? Trump's actions, netanyahu's actions everything that is playing out is absurd, and yet it's very real. So this Armageddon thing is not theologically justifiable at all.
It really, I would argue with any kind of mainline, mainstream, legitimate orthodox Christian tradition. But there are these nut jobs who are saying this, and some of those nut jobs happen to hold cabinet positions who parade themselves around describing themselves as secretaries of war. A position that does not exist in the United States of America.
SCHLUMPF: I'm so glad you brought that up, David, because when I first saw the reports about that, I was like, this cannot be true. This cannot be happening in our military. And then I saw that there were like a dozen complaints made by service members, if not more about this being said as a. Quote unquote justification.
We can share in the show notes a piece I did for us Catholic, all about apocalyptic language and how that's being used more broadly in our politics today. But the fact that it would try to be used for the justification for this war only cements in my mind that Christian nationalism is like run amok among people on the right in our government today.
Just shocking to me.
HORAN: I think it's also important to, to point out for our Catholic listeners that as we heard in the topper of the segment, Pope Leo has been like his predecessor, John Paul ii very clear. This is not a gray area where there are exceptions. This is not okay. This is not morally justifiable. Quite frankly, those who are participating this are culpable.
Right. I do wonder, you know, certainly those who are making the decisions, but I worry for the folks who are flying those jets and dropping the bombs and who are, you know, are torn, I imagine in their conscience about whether or not this constitutes a legal. Authorized legitimate instruction or order or not.
You know, I'm the son of a US Marine Corps officer, veteran a disabled American veteran, and very proud of the people who do risk their lives and and their safety and take seriously justice and moral reasoning and doing the right thing. Sometimes that involves violence and sometimes it is really tragic.
But to make a joke and to make light of. These people's lives this way is one of the greatest insults. I mean, it's hard to imagine President Trump adding any further insult or injury to insult after all of his like really disrespectful comments and behavior around the US armed forces.
But this has gotta take the prize.
DAULT: I also was grateful for Pope Leo's remarks and especially grateful for the very powerful statement of Blaze Soch, our cardinal here in Chicago. And one of the things that soup pitch was really sort of focusing on was the idea of the gamification of war and the notion that somehow we, you know, we, and part of what he was responding to was an ad that the White House put out in favor of this war.
Cutting together a bunch of clips from various kind of militarized movies. With a kind of bombastic, you know, we are here to create justice and we are here to finish the battle and whatever. And the whole notion of this ad from the White House was this is for your entertainment. Are you not entertained?
And I really like that Blaze Soic named that and condemned that. Said there is real human cost here and we have to keep that in mind, or we lose something in ourselves not just on the battlefield, but in our souls as well. And so I think that's a piece that, that we really need to keep front and center and unfortunately, I'm sure that we will come back to this issue in future episodes.
For right now, we're going to take a quick break, but we ask listeners. Both write to your representatives about this, but also please petition the creator of the universe about this. Lift up the innocent and those that are being harmed in your prayers, but also pray for a swift end to this madness. I don't have a better word for it.
With that, we're going to take a quick break. You're listening to The Francis Effect. We'll be back in just a moment.
SEGMENT 2
HORAN: Welcome back to The Francis Effect. I'm Dan Haran and I'm here with David Dolt and Heidi Schlump. Every couple of weeks we get together to discuss news and events. Through a lens of our shared Catholic faith. Last month, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops weighed in on the birthright citizenship case.
Currently before the US Supreme Court, the bishops filed an amicus brief that supports the current practice of conferring citizenship on all people born in the United States. A Trump administration executive order tried to end the practice early last year.
In their brief, the Bishop's Conference argues that quote, the principle of citizenship by birth is firmly rooted in Western legal tradition, enshrined in the 14th Amendment, and reaffirmed by this court's precedent. End quote, they added that quote. It is equally grounded in church teaching, which affirms the inherent dignity of every human person, especially the innocent child End quote.
In addition to noting the legal arguments, the bishops make the moral argument that ending birthright citizenship would harm families and leave children stateless and vulnerable to trafficking and exploitation. Their brief was filed on February 26th on behalf of the Bishop's Conference and the Catholic Legal Immigration Network or Clinic, which is an organization founded by the US Bishops.
The Supreme Court expects to hear oral arguments on the case on April 1st. The Trump Administration's executive order issued on January 20th, 2025, declared that individuals born in the United States are not US citizens at birth if their parents lack sufficient legal status or have temporary legal status.
But the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, which was ratified after the Civil War guarantees citizenship to quote, all persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, including formerly enslaved persons. Heidi, you've been following this case and the reaction to the bishop's brief tell us how this has been unfolding.
SCHLUMPF: This has been kind of interesting to see how it unfolded. I only learned about the amicus brief when I saw criticism of it. So the criticism from Catholics on the right was pretty swift and pretty strong saying that the bishops had no business, you know? Mucking around with this issue and that it was a legal issue, not a moral issue.
But I see this amicus brief as part of this broader, you know, movement on the part of the conference, but also many individual. Bishops and church leaders to speak up about the issue of immigration and to see it as an important issue for Catholics and Catholic leaders to be commenting on. So the you know, the brief talks about some of the.
Legal issues. And I think in the end, according to legal analysts, as you all know, I'm not an attorney. It's gonna come down to that whole phrase, the subject to the jurisdiction thereof and what that actually means in the 14th Amendment. But but the moral issues are there. And the bishops rightly pushed back on this narrative that birthright citizens somehow lures people, you know, to migrants to come here illegally and have, you know, anchor babies that allegedly then help.
You know, other people get citizenship. They point out that a child born here who becomes a citizen can't even petition to have family members become citizens until that baby is 21 years old. So if people are really doing that, it's not a very efficient or effective way to bring other people into citizenship.
But I will say. That. They also raise the other moral issues about human dignity, about participation. They even use the subsidiary, the argument, which I'm not sure how that works here, and that is somewhat debatable. But the idea is they're saying there could be a whole class of people who are virtually stateless and therefore.
Like in much danger and what this will do to families is terrible. And just to see the Bishop's Conference using Catholic social teaching to speak to an issue of our day, it gave me a little bit of a warm feeling. I gotta be honest, I.
HORAN: It's nice. Doesn't happen very often these days.
DAULT: And just for listeners that may be unclear about this, what is an amicus brief in the first place? It amicus comes from a Latin phrase, amicus, which means friend of the court. And these are. Parties that are not directly involved in a legal case and yet feel as if they have a significant stake in the outcome of the legal case who write and petition to the court to sort of give a more robust and and fully informed aura.
To the deliberations of the case. And for those critics who say that the U-S-C-C-B has no role speaking in legal issues, I will point them to, and I will also flag this in the show notes, the page where there are hundreds of amicus briefs from the U-S-C-C-B on a variety of issues filed just from like the last five years.
And so I, I. Take issue with the notion that somehow the U-S-C-C-B does not have a proper role in this. They have been involving themselves as friends of the court in a variety of issues, especially life issues, but also other political issues for decades.
HORAN: Well, on that note too, in picking up David, on what Heidi was saying about, you know, the application of Catholic social teaching, which is, you know, core moral teaching of the church, you know, through the ordinary exercise of magisterium is quite striking. And especially when you think about the same, critics have never raised a peak to your point about.
The bishop's weighing in on things like the Dobbs decision or anti-abortion advocacy or this sort of thing, right? And yet again here we see once a child is born, these same sort of folks do not seem at all interested or concerned about the life wellbeing or inherent dignity of these kids. And so, you know, first of all, we need to state that clearly.
So, props I'm joining you Heidi. You know. I can be and with great justification rather critical of our brother bishops. But this is an instance in which I think they're doing the right thing. The gospel centered thing, you know, the morally upright thing. But let's also be honest about what this is really about.
At the end of the day, this is about racism. This is about who you know. It's, there's no lost irony here for me that the 14th Amendment was passed in response to the end of the Civil War and how to. Kind of in, in Enfranchise a people who were stateless who were not even recognized as people by this country but as chattel and as property.
I mean, one of as Jim Wallace famously says, you know, our collective American original sin. But we see this, you know, it's absurd on its face the way that the trumpets administration just discloses their true racist priorities here. So they're debating about brown and black people who immigrate here, who are students here who, whatever reason, legal or otherwise, who.
Have children, and again, side note, may be worth revisiting. JD Vance and his cronies are so concerned about the birthright in this country. You think they'd be happy to have an increase of these young Americans? Side note, back to the main argument. What we see is the Trump administration closing down an increasingly shutting out people who do not look white.
Or European, and we can see this play out when you see a classification of white South African africaners being granted asylum on bogus claims of you know, political threats or I guess at some point the Trump of Adminis regime even talked about a white genocide this sort of thing.
I would recommend listeners, if you're not familiar with this, check out a 60 minute segment that was done where they went to South Africa and spoke to many of these white Africana farmers about what their experience of violence actually is and how bogus and how absolutely absurd these claims are that they themselves see this as overtly racist too.
So, I think that this is, you know, again, props to the bishops. I think that those who are advocating for the maintenance of the plane reading in this text I would hope that we have a nine, oh, beyond majority, I guess unanimous upholding of this position.
SCHLUMPF: Just to respond to another one of the criticisms made in some Catholic publications and there was a lot of criticism again some people have noted that, oh, a minority of countries have birthright citizen and they'll raise up countries that don't have birthright citizenship. For example, the Vatican does not have birthright citizenship for people who are born there.
And so I did a little research about that and learned like, yes, it's very common. To have birthright citizenship in countries that are formed by immigrants like ours is, and, you know, maybe they should have birthright citizenship in some of the countries where they don't have it. what worries me about that? Is that there really is this effort to change us from a country of immigrants to a country that's like just the people who are here now. Like as you're saying, Dan, like primarily the white people get to be Americans and we're closing the door to being a country of immigrants now.
That's very concerning to me 'cause I think it's our greatest. Strength and the diversity that comes with immigrants. I will note the expectation probably isn't a nine zero decision. They could either, you know, uphold the executive order or not. They think it's very likely that it's something that might get sent back and say, you know, the executive branch can't do this, but Congress could pass a law ending birthright citizenship, and I would hope that that wouldn't happen.
HORAN: I would imagine, again, I'm also not a lawyer, but the three of us like to play one on this podcast sometimes. Um, That I, the plain reading of the text is, seems to me rather straightforward, all persons born or naturalized. The United States end of story. I mean, again, the history is so significant here and for our originalist friends on the court, I think you should go back to the 18th hundreds and recognize that in fact, go back to the 18th century.
One thing I've been thinking a lot about in preparation for our discussion about this is the really wonderful 12 hour long. Ken Burn's documentary on the Revolutionary War, and you think about the ways that the founders imperfect as they were hypocritical as they were, right? Because you look at Thomas Jefferson and many of the other founders, beautiful philosophical, poetic sort of vision of what this country could be, even if they themselves were kind of undermining it in their personal lives, you know, and owning other humans and this sort of thing and reinforcing the chattel slavery system.
Nevertheless, the debates that they had about. What it meant to be a nation, right? And to do so without this hereditary monarchical sort of structure, which had been the kind of standard, at least in Europe, if that's what the alternative is, right? So when we ask, well, well then how does one recognize the citizenship of a newborn child?
It, it follows from their parents. Well, that's essentially, we're back in kind of medieval England again or something to that effect. So, I, again, this is a day where I'm just throwing out these recommendations left and right for TV and movie. But I do think the Ken Burns documentary is really well done 'cause it shows the conflicts, but it also shows.
What we aspire to be. And this is not in keeping with that in the least. I mean, David, you and our mutual friend, all three of our friends, Steve Mille's co-host a podcast where you are plowing through the Federalist paper. So, you know, these are these debates playing out in real time. I don't know if you have thoughts from your, you know, PO podcast crossover here, that might inform some of this thinking.
DAULT: Steven, Millie and I spend a lot of time belaboring exactly this point, the gap between the ideals that are. Stated in the founding documents of this nation, including the Declaration of Independence and the 85 Federalist Papers, where we're figuring out, you know, a type of government that didn't work, which was less centralized.
These are writers, three of them that are arguing for the system that we basically have now. And you know, when. Stephen and I started this review of the Federalist Papers. We were in a very different constitutional regime than we seem to be in now, but I really am taking what both of you are saying, and I am deeply moved by it because the 14th Amendment in some ways, and I'm not the first person to say this was the refounding of the nation.
Where a lot of these ideals that were being sort of nascently described in the Federalist Papers and in the Constitution really came to their fore. And we really became a nation where immigrants and those who are, not of high birth, were able to become part of the citizenry and part of the decision making process.
And in addition to the Federalist Papers, I have been meditating a lot. In the last couple of weeks on the poem by Emma Lazarus called The New Colossus which is emblazoned on the base of the Statue of Liberty. And if folks have not paid attention to the words lately, I think I'd like to introduce them into the conversation for reflection.
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame with conquering limbs. Astri from land to land. Here at our sea washed sunset gates shall stand a mighty woman with a torch whose flame is the imprisoned lightning. And her name, mother of exiles from her beacon hand glows worldwide. Welcome. Her mild eyes command, the air bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
Keep ancient lands your storied po. Cries. She with silent lips. Give me your tired. You're poor. You're huddled masses, yearning to breathe free. The wretched refuse of your teaming shore. Send these, the homeless tempest tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door. I have a lot of criticism of America, but when I come to those words and when I come to the promise of the 14th Amendment, I see something that kin keeps giving me hope.
In the midst of this, and I'm so angry right now that there are those who have taken the benefits of the Promise of America for their own. Fortunes and treasure and have tried to lock off the golden door to others who are vulnerable. That's not Catholic teaching, that's not the teaching of Christ.
That's not the America that I want to be part of. And so in frustration and in hope, I lift up those words of Emma Lazarus with us today.
HORAN: Maybe with that, David, thank you for the sharing. Lots to reflect on and that we, and hopefully many of our listeners are not only friends of the court, but friends of our immigrant and refugee neighbors. We keep them in prayer. We'll continue to advocate and hope that the court makes the right call here.
We're gonna take a break. You're listening to The Francis Effect. We'll be back in a moment.
SEGMENT 3
DAULT: Welcome back to The Francis Effect. I'm David Dult and I'm here with Dan Harran and Heidi Schlump. Every couple of weeks we get together to discuss a variety of topics from a perspective informed by our Catholic faith. The 98th Academy Awards ceremony, better known as the Oscars will take place this Sunday evening.
The event, which is widely seen as the capstone of the television and film award season that begins with the Golden Globes in January will be hosted by the comedian Conan O'Brien and will be broadcast live and expected to be viewed by millions of people worldwide. This year, there are 24 categories with classic awards, including best director, best actor, and actress in a leading role, best actor and actress in a supporting role, best writing, original and adapted screenplays, and the most prestigious award best picture among many others.
In addition, a new category has been added this year called Best Casting, which is the first new award to be added since 2001, when best animated feature film was included. This weekend's award ceremony will honor films released in 2025. The top prize includes 10 nominees, a number that was expanded from five in the year 2000, and includes movies from across a range of genres.
These include Begonia, a comedy thriller starring Emma Stone and Jesse Clemens. F1 a car racing movie starring Brad Pitt, Frankenstein, director Guillermo del Toro's, take on the Mary Shelley Classic, starring Oscar Isaac and Jacob Ati Hamnet the period piece about the death of Shakespeare's son based on Maggie o' Farrell's 2020 novel by the same name, Marty Supreme, A rapid paste, surprisingly suspenseful film about a table tennis prodigy starring Timothy Chalamet and directed by Josh Ty. One battle after another.
The Paul Thomas Anderson Action Blockbuster, based on Thomas Pin's, 1990 novel Vineland, the Secret Agent, a Brazilian movie said in the 1970s, which has been described as a historical political thriller. Sentimental value. A Norwegian drama about two sisters and their reunion with their estranged father, played by Tel Skarsgard trained Dreams, an American period drama that covers 80 years of the life of a lagger in the Pacific Northwest, starring Joel Edgerton and Felicity Jones and Sinners, a vampire thriller set in 1932 in Mississippi starring Michael B.
Jordan, who plays both twin brothers. Sinners goes into Sunday's award show with the most nominations at 16 total. Dan, regular listeners know that you are a big fan of movies and that you look forward to the Oscars every year. I understand that you have watched all 10 of the best picture nominees, as well as others featured in different categories.
What are your thoughts about the films in contention? How do you think things will play out on Sunday, and what are your personal favorites?
HORAN: Yes I have seen all 10 of the best picture nominees. I strive to see all of them before the Oscars every year and some years I'm successful and some years I'm not. I'm happy to say that with two weeks despair, I did get all 10 in. The last one I saw was the Brazilian movie the Secret Agent.
Not one of my favorites actually, though the critics, this is like a kind of critics choice award. The movie critics really loved it. I didn't see exactly what they saw, but it's a beautiful movie. I mean, literally in terms of its cinematography, I think the acting is very good. I don't think the story is as good as someone suggests, so I'll just leave that there.
But I will say that I think this is a rather strong lineup. I was nervous come January and February when the Golden Globes were happening and some of these other kind of Guild awards were taking place that before the announcement of the nominees, I was a little bit concerned that like maybe wicked part two would be included.
No disrespect to Wicked. My nieces are obsessed with it and so, you know, props or props are due. But we've had a couple years where there would be two or three. Middling at best sort of pictures that would kind of sneak their way in. And you know, the second or the most recent avatar movie didn't make it in, it did a couple years ago, the last installment.
So, you know, I don't wanna sound sort of snobby 'cause I really am not. I am an equal opportunity viewer. I love movies, I love tv. People often ask me you know, do you ever sleep at night? And I do, but I also like to watch a lot of TV and movies. But. You know, I think a couple things that maybe I could highlight, and I'm curious to see how many or if any, I know you two don't watch as many movies as I do, but if you've seen any and what your thoughts are one thing I'll say is One battle after another in Sinners are just two extraordinary movies.
They're absolutely excellent. I think they're neck and neck in my book for best picture. I think one battle after another probably is inched ahead just a little bit because of its complexity and its plot because it's a Paul Thomas Anderson movie and he has often been seen as snubbed. So maybe he'll get director though.
Josh Safie for Marty Supreme. I think sinners also. I mean, there's, it could go either way and so. You know, come Sunday night if one battle after another or sinners were to win, I'd be happy with that. I have to say one movie that I really loved was Sentimental Value. It's in Norwegian, some English but mostly Norwegian.
And as you said, David Stars still and Skarsgard. He is excellent in this film, as are the two Norwegian actresses that play his daughters. I also really was moved by the movie Hamnet, which is based on a novel that is very fictional.
The only kind of fact, the colonel of facts that the Maggie o Ferrell. Had was this reference both to Aunt Hathaway, Shakespeare's wife, and that they had a son named Hamnet who died. And what she does with this O'Farrell in her novel and then adapts the screenplay and what we see play out before us is absolutely beautiful.
I think Jesse Buckley, the Irish actress who was the lead there is a really strong contender for for best actress. She does a, an amazing job there. I'll also say I was really surprised you asked David what was I surprised by? I was surprised at how much I really liked Netflix's Frankenstein.
I didn't think going into it that I would love it. It's not what people think it's gonna be. It's not a horror movie. There are some scary elements to it, but it's deeply moving and very beautiful and a great invitation to reflect on the meaning of what it's like to be human.
So those are my initial snapshots about best pictures. I do wanna talk about some of the other categories maybe as we go on, but what movies have you seen or what are you rooting for? Heidi?
SCHLUMPF: Well, first of all, props to you for seeing all 10. That's impressive. My sister tries to do a similar thing. Was that a, an intentional pun saying that sinners was neck and neck with the reference to vampires I
HORAN: That's true. I buried the vampire lead.
SCHLUMPF: I I've only seen two of the best picture nominees. You know, I guess I'm busy and also we're not as big of movie moviegoers.
Although I did talk my husband into seeing a couple of them, I, you know, sometimes we have where we don't disagree enough on this show. So. I'm gonna, I'm gonna disagree. I did not like sinners. I mean, I, the whole first half, I mean, it's well acted and the whole first act, but once it turned into a vampire movie, you lost me.
It's just not my genre and I. Yeah, I just couldn't do it. And my husband felt the same. So it's good we're married 'cause we have similar tastes. I and I guess I'm kinda shocked, like really the most nominees ever in Oscar history that like, I just don't see it at that level. I don't know, you guys, maybe you two can convince
HORAN: I guess Heidi, that's just advertisement that you're not gonna switch desks at Commonwealth and become the film critic anytime soon. Probably.
SCHLUMPF: Probably not. But let me say just just over the weekend we saw, and it's one you didn't mention, Dan Train Dreams.
HORAN: Yeah,
SCHLUMPF: I love that movie. It was just like a slow, beautiful movie about an ordinary life. And it had some, I won't call it violence, but I mean, I guess partly I just don't like to watch extremely violent movies.
I have enough with reading the news every day. And this wasn't like a escapist. Fantasy or anything either. But it was just a beautiful picture and really made me think about the importance of a life and also a life over a long period of time and how people lived in previous decades and even centuries.
So I recommend that one. I'm not saying it's necessarily gonna win the Oscar, but I really liked it.
HORAN: I'll just say and then David, I wanna hear your take on this, that. I also like training dreams, and it's, it is very slow, so it's not one of these action packed. There are no vampires involved and there are no sort of postmodernist revolutionary sort of themes like you see in, in one battle after another.
But it is very good. Another one I didn't mention again, we have somebody to talk about. Is Marty Supreme, which I thought was excellent. It is terrifyingly excellent. Because the pace is so intense. Josh, Ty, of course, did the movie Uncut Gem some years ago with Adam Sandler. Equally fast paced.
It's a psychological thriller, not in a horror way, but horror kind of way. It is horrifying. Your heart's racing the whole time. It's the exact opposite of train dreams. Where that's a slow burn. It's a beautiful sort of, you know, unfolding. But Marty Supreme, you're, I found myself on the edge of my seat and my blood pressure was through the roof the whole time, but it was melt d
SCHLUMPF: Well, I just wanna say though, I don't wanna dissuade people from watching train dreams 'cause I was riveted. I mean, even though it's slow I found it so compelling and I don't know, it might be my gen, my gender, just my husband really liked it too though, so I don't know. David, have you seen either of, have you seen, what have you seen?
Let's hear.
DAULT: have seen a handful. I have not had the ambitious run that our, our dear comrade Dan here has had. But I will
HORAN: These, These are euphemisms for Dan needs to get a life. I hear it. Message received.
DAULT: So I work a lot in my scholarly life on the theory of translation and interpretation. I wrote my master's thesis on a German interpretive sort of master by the name of Franz Rosenzweig, who did a lot of work with Martin Buber and was very famous for doing translations of Yehuda. He's poetry into German, and also they did a masterful translation of the Bible into German.
So I, I think a lot about what it means to take a. A piece of art from one form or one genre, and to move it into another genre. And so I, I've been thinking a lot about one battle after another and a lot about Frankenstein because as you've alluded to in Frankenstein's case, our perception of what the story of Frankenstein is, is really shaped by a film that was made in the 1940s starring Boris Karloff.
That is. A misreading of Shelly's Frankenstein. It is a complete misreading of the story. Now, Del Toro's version of Frankenstein is also a misreading of the Frankenstein story from Shelly, but it brings it closer to the original. And I was fascinated by the backlash around that because there were certain critics who really didn't like that.
It didn't feel like the 1940s Frankenstein. We have a similar problem with one battle after another pension is. Infamously difficult as a, just as a person on the written page, let alone trying to take that writing and turn it into a visual medium. And so we have all kind of translational problems here that are to me, very fascinating and are, to me, much more fascinating than the question of which one ultimately wins the best picture award.
But I just want to stay with the deliciousness of disagreement, Heidi, because my favorite of the bunch is in fact sinners. I really love that film, and I'm, I've been coming back to it and thinking about it again and again. So I, I affirm that you don't like the vampire genre or that didn't work for you.
As a critique of capitalism, as a critique of racism, as a critique of whiteness, sort of sucking the blood out of the African American community and using it for a different kind of corpse like life. To me, that really worked.
HORAN: I'll say too as I'm fond of saying in real life, I don't know if I've thrown this phrase around at all on the podcast. Forgive me if I have, but in Latin, there's this expression de Augusta boost nodi, which means, in taste, there is no dispute. So we can disagree. It's art. And so. There is no wrong answer.
There is not no wrong kind of reception. And I think, you know, I love sinners. I really enjoy train dreams as well. And I think that, you know, just as Frankenstein wasn't about monsters, this. Your sinners isn't really about vampires either. And I think that's one of the interesting things about this slate of nominees is that here's one that hasn't come up.
And I watched and it was perfectly fine. This may be the weakest, in my opinion, of all the finalists for best picture, and that's F1. It was a very entertaining movie. You got your Brad Pitt, you've got fast car races. It was an interesting story. I thought all the secondary and ancillary cast was great, but I, I.
It's not a bad year when that, in my opinion, is the weakest link. Begonia was also very interesting. It's a weird movie. Emma Stone and that director whose name escapes me at the moment Lamos, I think is his last name. Yorgos Lamos. They've been doing some weird stuff lately, but it was less weird than poor things from a few years back.
But more weird than probably anything else. Vampires and monsters included.
DAULT: Well, and I just wanna say, Heidi your praise has made me, now I want to go watch Train Dreams, and I'm grateful for that.
SCHLUMPF: Well, and I wanna say about sinners. I did get that message about race and about, you know. The connection between the Irish folks and that I, I mean, I thought it was an interesting movie. I wouldn't say don't see it, but I was shocked at the amount of praise that was heaped on it. I, and I do have to say the amazingness of who's the lead actor, who plays both,
DAULT: Michael
michael b Jordan.
SCHLUMPF: I mean, that's impressive, obviously.
HORAN: was excellent. I.
SCHLUMPF: That's impressive. So, I mean, the whole process of movie making is it's a skill that you can be wowed by just even if you didn't personally like, love the movie. So I agree with that.
DAULT: But now we have to put this into a Catholic framework. What would be Jesus's favorite movie and what
HORAN: Oh, I.
DAULT: to see?
HORAN: Don't know. I'm not gonna touch that one at all. But let me just shift gears a little bit and talk about two other things. I know we, we don't have much time and having seen all 10 of these and others, I could talk forever. Maybe I need to host a podcast about movies like David's Federalist papers.
DAULT: I will help you if you want to do that. I am your huckleberry for that. Yes.
HORAN: I I wanna talk for a moment about the nominees for, or at least one nominee, if we have time for it, for best documentary film. And if folks have not seen the movie, come see me in the good light about the poet Andrea Gibson. I cannot recommend this highly enough. You will cry. I was a waterworks mess.
In the first few minutes I was able to recover for a little bit, but then it really hits you later. For those who don't know, Andrea Gibson is a well, well regarded award-winning. Renowned poet and a real pioneer in a kind of poetic performance, went on tours across the United States and was a real tour to force pun intended there, who was diagnosed with a very aggressive cancer that kept coming back.
And so this is a documentary film about basically the last. Tour that we're preparing for the tour and her kind of for frailty as a human being. It's a love story about her and her wife. It is absolutely gorgeous. I first learned about this because one of Andrea Gibson's close friends is the comedian t Nataro who I'm a fan of and tig herself who has had battles with cancer and herself.
Is married to a woman a lesbian who is so, you know, impactful in film and in tv and in comedy was one of the kind of leading forces among a whole list of who's, who's producers that, that made this film possible. You have to prepare yourself. It is not it's not sort of like a gut punch in a kind of got you way.
It is a, just a beautiful story that is interwoven with her own poetry. And so you get to see the real humanity. You also see the real frailty and struggle of the, you know, what it's like to be dying of cancer and what it's like to be, close to somebody who is dying with cancer. Yeah.
Can't recommend it enough and can't recommend her poetry enough. So if you haven't seen that, or if you're looking for something. That maybe doesn't involve monsters or zombies or race cars or Shakespeare's son dying, which itself is a tear jerker that there Yeah. It's a be, you know what the story is gonna be going into Hamnet, but what Jesse Buckley in particular, and with the little boy who's the actor, whose name I do not recall, who plays their son they're.
Extraordinary. The other thing I wanna say is it, I don't wanna brush over this new category of casting director, best casting. This is something that the casting Guild has been advocating for decades in the nineties, just by way for. Let me nerd out for a minute. In the nineties, there was a push to get this included and it was shut down by the academy.
It has been coming up in recent years and in 2024 they announced that it would be added to 2025 and therefore 2026 award ceremony. There are five finalists there. In my opinion, I think that the casting director for Marty Supreme should win. Josh Ty was, was, had a strong hand in casting that movie.
But, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow and Timothy Chala me are the kind of marquee headline actors that kind of anchor this. And Shala MA's performance was extraordinary. But it's gonna be hard to go up against people like Ethan Hawke and Michael B. Jordan. I feel bad for Alade 'cause this is really an extraordinary performance.
But what's striking about Marty Supreme, if you haven't seen it, is the number of people who do these amazing performances that are not actual actors. I'll just mention two. Pico ier, the spiritual writer and travel writer plays a major role in this, and he's extraordinary. I don't wanna spoil things, so I'm not gonna say who's doing what.
But also, Kevin O'Leary, who is known, he's on Shark Tank he's one of these investors and I, Mr. Mr. Diehl or something, I can't remember. I not, I don't know the show, but he's well known from Shark Tank. But again, a finance guy, not somebody who is been on TV or in movies. I guess.
He's been on TV in Shark Tank, but not as an actor. And the cast just comes together with these professional actors and these sort of people that Saf d and the, that the casting director saw as like real, and it gives a real feel to the movie that, yeah, that it leads it to be more than the sum of its parts.
So I just wanna say I'm really happy with this casting director category. I think it's gonna be fun on Sunday to see these people who. Fill out the whole, ensemble of these films that are so meaningful to all of us and who've never really had the opportunity to be given the credit where credit is due.
So I, I just wanted to make sure to mention that documentary and to give a shout out to the academy for the inclusion of these very talented directors who, who bring these disparate people together into an ensemble
SCHLUMPF: I'm just going to second that idea of you having a podcast on movies, although I definitely still wanna talk about it here at The Francis Effect, but you've got a lot of good insights and it's always fun to get your recommendations for movies and other pop culture.
So it was nice to be able to end on a more joyous and hopeful note. The news is hard, and we'll continue to be commenting and watching that and be back again in two weeks to do that. Again, thank you for joining us and we pray for everyone who may be in harm's ways in these next days.
So, thanks again for listening to The Francis Effect. See you next episode.