NYC and Denver get new bishops, new revelations from the Epstein files, and an interview with Fr. Isaac Slater
Heidi, Daniel, and David look at the possibilities arising from new episcopal leadership in New York City and Denver. Then they turn their attention to the most recent disclosures from the Epstein files. In our final segment, Heidi interviews Fr. Isaac Slater about the spiritual value of not judging others.
INTRO
Bad Bunny halftime show
Alternative halftime show
Daniel’s lecture in Dubuque - Finding Hope in Challenging Times
Heidi speaking at Caldwell University Social Justice Symposium on Feb. 27th
SEGMENT 1 - NYC and Denver get new bishops
Bishop Hicks
“Get to know Archbishop Golka”
SEGMENT 2 - New revelations from the Epstein files
Backgrounder on the recent release
Andrew Chesnut’s commentary on Patheos about the Bannon-Epstein correspondence
SEGMENT 3 - Heidi interviews Fr. Isaac Slater
TRANSCRIPTS
INTRO
DAULT: Hello and welcome to the Francis Effect Podcast. My name is David Dalt. I host a radio show called Things Not Seen about Culture and Faith, and I'm an assistant professor of Christian Spirituality at the Institute of Pastoral Studies at Loyola University Chicago. I'm here with my two dear friends, Heidi Schlump and Dan Harran.
Heidi is senior correspondent at Common Wheel Magazine. She's also an award-winning journalist and part-time faculty member at Loyola University Chicago. Dan is professor of philosophy, religious studies and Theology. At St. Mary's College in Notre Dame, Indiana. He's also a regular columnist at National Catholic Reporter.
Every couple of weeks we get together to discuss news and events through a lens of our shared Catholic faith. Dan and Heidi, welcome to you both. Heidi. How have you been?
SCHLUMPF: I'm doing great. We're recording this the morning after the Super Bowl, so I'm dragging a little bit 'cause I was at a Super Bowl party last night. And I'll give you my comments on the bad bunny performance in a second, but. February is shaping up to be very busy for me on the work side. You know, things are underway with my class.
I'm working on a couple longer term writing projects. The news is not slowing down for me. I did a presentation or a response to a presentation at the Hank Center about a week and a half ago with Father Mark Masa from Boston College, was doing a great piece. Presentation about his book on Catholic fundamentalism.
That went really well and I'm busy getting ready for a talk. I'm giving at the end of the month, February 27th at Caldwell University in Caldwell, New Jersey. And so if anyone is of our listeners is in that area, I would love to see you. It's open to the public and it's a day long social justice symposium.
I'll be the keynote speaker at lunchtime, so. Lot on my plate right now, but all good. And but had a good time this weekend doing some social things, including watching. I did not watch any of the game. I do not care about either of those teams, but I was very interested in the halftime show and I'll be curious to see what you guys thought.
I loved it. I know one bad bunny song and I know of him and loved what he said at the Grammys. But I just found it so. Joyful and uplifting. And you know, in a time when so much is negative in our country, it was so positive talking about coming together and the power of love. Obviously that's not what happened as like a certain segment of the American population wouldn't even tune in, but but I really loved it.
So I'd be curious if either of you watched it and if you what you thought too. So how about you, Dan?
HORAN: Yeah, I did watch it. I'm not a huge football fan, but I enjoyed it as much as I can. And actually I haven't watched the Super Bowl in the last couple years. In fact, I have this recollection when I lived in Chicago going to dinner one time with our mutual friend Steve Mills. And neither of us apparently were very big football fans 'cause we were sitting there having dinner and noticed a TV over the bar playing the football game and not a lot of people in the restaurant.
So it's a fond memory, I think of as kind of indicative of you know, you know, not typically tuning in, but yeah, I did this time. I liked the halftime show too. I thought it was really clever. It was beautiful. I liked the little vignettes, like with the little kid who was watching the Grammy acceptance and then he gives the Grammy and yeah, I, the other thing I was really surprised this morning, as Heidi mentioned, it's Monday morning, the day after.
There wasn't a whole lot of coverage in the kind of leading. Newspapers of record about the alternative Super Bowl show with kid Rock, I guess, and Turning Point USA. So I guess that happened, but my, the fact that it, nobody really talked about, it seemed to suggest exactly what my instinct was, which was this was a very kind of blog and social media centric bubble of people who are really, you know, chronically online and upset about things.
With valences of racism obviously, and xenophobia and anti-immigration sentiment and political polarization. But I didn't notice when I was trying to find some information. Then I went down a rabbit hole looking to see if anyone could comment on, you know, what actually did happen with this alternative halftime show.
And one of the reporters noted in a piece that Donald Trump had actually posted on this truth. Social, some sort of criticism of the Bad Bunny show as it was happening. And so the joke was apparently even the president himself was watching the Super Bowl halftime show. So, yeah, the one thing I will say, not being a super, you not really a football fan at all as listeners would be probably not surprised to hear.
I'm a college basketball and NBA guy all the way and have been enjoying the Winter Olympics too, I should say. We're right now in that season. But, one of the things that kind of I thought was interesting in the first half was that all of the points were scored for Seattle by the kicker, this guy Myers.
And I was saying, you know, all along I'm like, this guy should be MVP, be the first time, you know, in 60 years of the Super Bowl that a kicker would be MVP. But I guess he, he didn't get it, so I don't know what. What the rules are there, the politics, the expectations. But shout out to that guy who was carrying the whole team with his as I was joking, literal football.
So, David, how about you? Were you watching the big game as they say?
DAULT: There was a game. I uh, so I have to admit that holds no interest for me whatsoever. Like you I'm a baseball and a basketball fan and not really a football fan. But I did watch the bad money. Halftime. Extravaganza and I'll say, first of all, the comment from Elmo from Sesame Street I thought was very apt, where Elmo immediately spoke up and said not bad bunny, but good bunny.
I'm gonna call you Mr. Good Bunny. Thank you, Mr. Good Bunny. I really liked that because that was kind of how I felt. Watching this I have extended family that comes from Puerto Rico. I don't pretend to understand the culture, but from what I have absorbed from my relatives I understand how important the pride is of that island homeland.
The way that they have really suffered from infrastructure collapse and from real neglect and the way that they suffer from a great deal of bigotry, even though they are part of America, they are not considered as we clearly see to be part of America. And so what the things that I really liked about the the bad bunny extravaganza was one, just how.
On the ground. It was instead of being up on a big stage, it literally was a grounded performance. And it involved Steve Inskeep this morning from NPR said he kept handing the mic away. He kept sort of putting the focus on other people, which I thought was really beautiful and wonderful. So he was foregrounding not simply his performance, but the culture.
And the aspects of the culture that he was foregrounding were, yes, they were racy. They were they were embodied and sexy and enjoyable, but they were also, you know, as Catholics, we should love the fact that a marriage happened during the midst of all of this. And that that there was the possibility of not simply, focusing on the United States of America, but all of the Americas. And so for those that are fans of you know, our blessed mother, the Virgin of Guadalupe we can see that the queen of all of the Americas was honored in this as well. So I, you know, I found as a Catholic a lot of reasons to really like the bad bunny the bad bunny extravaganza.
I keep calling it extravaganza 'cause that's the way it felt. It felt like a block party or a. Party in an entire town that was there, kind of modeled on the field. And just a quick note about the the alternative halftime show with Kid Rock. I think a lot of people saw the irony of Foregrounding Kid Rock as the main performer when he has so many lyrics about things that are not necessarily in line with family values.
You know, there, there was that particular lyric. That was circulated around where he talked about, you know, the mandatory notion of getting with underage girls. The best possible light that I have seen the Kid Rock piece be put in was that kid rock on that stage for the alternative thing was sort of telling a narrative.
And the narrative began with his sort of reckless youth and his being a rowdy, entertainer that likes to sleep with underage girls and then it then moving through to eventually at the end, he's reintroduced, apparently not as kid rock, but as himself and now his redeemed self who is sort of talking about his relationship with his Lord and Savior.
So this is a narrative that we have seen many times, a kind of rehabilitation. But the fact that you had to have a rehabilitation to be part of the narrative sort of speaks to the whole weirdness of that alternative piece. So those are my initial thoughts about all of that. I did enjoy watching The Bad Bunny or as Elmo would say, Mr.
Good Bunny. I enjoyed that very much.
HORAN: I'll just give one other shout out non-Super Bowl related. And that is the day that this. Episode drops, which is Thursday, February 12th. I'll actually be in Dubuque, Iowa giving a public lecture on finding hope in challenging times. We'll have a link in the show notes to that. It's gonna be 6:30 PM and the information you can find online really looking forward to that.
It's it's been a while since I've been in that part of Iowas. So if you are listening this morning or this afternoon or some point. Today and have the evening free. Come and spend some time with us as we reflect on Christian hope in these fearful and challenging times.
DAULT: so listeners coming up on the show today, in our first segment, we're gonna be looking at New York City and Denver, getting new bishops and the impact of Pope Leo on the American Episcopal.
In our second segment, we're gonna be looking at new and very unfortunate revelations coming from the most recent release of three and a half million more Epstein files. Just a quick note that. Our second segment may have some triggering aspects for those that have experienced victimization or abuse.
We wanna make sure that you are not re-traumatized by our discussion, and so please proceed with caution and feel free to skip that segment if you need to. And then in our third segment, Heidi talks to Father Isaac Slater and they're talking about the spiritual practice of not. Judging others, so all that is coming up here on the Francis Effect.
Please stay with us.
SEGMENT 1
DAULT: Welcome back to The Francis Effect. I'm David Dat, and I'm here with Heidi Schlump and Dan Haran. Every couple of weeks we get together to discuss a variety of topics from a perspective informed by our Catholic faith. This past week has been a busy one for Episcopal appointments in significant archdiocese in the United States.
Last Friday, Archbishop Ronald Hicks was formally installed as the new Archbishop of New York, replacing Cardinal Timothy Dolan Hicks, a Chicago native, widely seen as a mentee of Chicago Cardinal Blaze. Sopi has served as an auxiliary bishop in Chicago before being named by Pope Francis as a bishop of Joliet, Illinois.
Like Dolan Hicks is a mid-Westerner who has moved to the largest and perhaps most consequential city in the United States, but apart from their shared Midwestern backgrounds, there is little that they have in common. Over the last decade, Dolan has become an increasingly outspoken supporter of President Donald Trump and has exhibited little reservation for expressing partisan positions.
Dolan has also cozied up to wealthy donors and ideological figures, both within secular and ecclesial political circles. Hicks by contrast, is someone who is widely seen as non-ideological and a pastor in the mold of Pope Francis and Pope Leo the xiv, a fluent Spanish speaker. Hicks has a history of missionary work in places like El Salvador
and has ministered to immigrants and prison inmates during his time in Chicago at a time when the Trump administration has ratcheted up its cruel anti-immigration agenda.
Hicks's installation in an historically immigrant metropolis is notable. The other big Episcopal news this week was Pope Leo's immediate acceptance of the retirement of Denver's Archbishop Samuel Aquila, and the appointment of Bishop James Ulka of Colorado Springs as Archbishop elect Aquila, who is well known for his conservative positions in policies, was appointed Archbishop of Denver by Pope Benedict the 16th in 2012, replacing Archbishop Charles Chapo, who Benedict moved to Philadelphia.
Ulka is a native of Nebraska and the product of Catholic schools and a graduate of Creighton University, a Jesuit college in Omaha. Before entering the seminary, Ulka served in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps working in a Native American mission in South Dakota. His background is largely pastoral and has been focused on parish life and ministry,
whereas his predecessor, Aquila served primarily in bureaucratic, chancery and seminary positions before being named Bishop of Fargo by John Paul II in 2001. Dan, many people may wonder what significance there is, if any, with these two Episcopal appointments.
How are you thinking about these two bishops and what it might mean for the broader American church?
HORAN: Yeah, I'm thinking a number of things with the requisite caution that you know, you can't read too much into anything. Right. We, especially when it comes to matters of the church and church politics especially, and it's important to name here that. We are talking in some ways about church politics.
There are very, as you've said, David very clear differences ideologically ecclesiastically and I would say socially even right culturally with the two retired archbishops and there replacements. But the first thing I wanna highlight though, is that I think this is a wonderful sign of a continuation of the appointments of church leaders in the United States.
And this is, I wanna focus more on the US or American Church rather than to think globally for the moment, because that's becomes unwieldy. But what we see in particular is a continuation of Pope Francis' vision. And what I mean by that is Pope Francis' vision for a missionary church, a church at the peripheries, a poor church for the poor, both in Bishop Hicks and in Bishop Goca, you have pastoral leaders, ministers in the church who have spent time at the peripheries who have prioritized in their ministry, pastoral. Encounters perish life and care for those especially at the margins. I was in Chicago lived in Chicago and taught in Chicago when now Archbishop picks then Bishop Picks was an auxiliary bishop in Chicago.
One of the things that he was, and doing as a kind of key ministry was outreach to the, to, not only to the poor, but to those who are incarcerated. And even before the kind of ramped up ice in, in invasion that we see in places like Chicago and Minneapolis and elsewhere. There was still people being detained in.
Trump one point 1.0. And Hicks himself was somebody who was going in and ministering to celebrating mass providing the sacraments for accompanying men and women who were in, in in prison. So it's really just quite striking to see that. Both Bishop Hicks and Bishop Ulka are folks who have not just talked the talk of kind of ecclesiastical intrigue and party politics and ladder climbing, but these are two men who have spent their entire lives working for the people of God at the parish level, at the local level.
And so I just wanna say something too and I'm really curious to hear what you both think. Both as residents in Chicago who may or may not have known Bishop Hicks. I've, I had the opportunity to meet him on a number of occasions when I lived there. Or what, you know, or think about Bishop Ulka.
But I wanna say something about Pope Leo for a moment, which is, it could be easy for folks to forget that a lot has been made of. Of the Holy Father's American roots, right, as somebody also from Chicago, and people have been making these parallels to Hicks and others, but what's important is to remember what, what Pope Leo's last job was before being elected Bishop of Rome.
And that was as Pope Francis' appointed Prefict of the Dicastery for Bishops, though the Holy Father is technically the person who signs off on the appointment of bishops and dioceses around the world. As you might imagine with thousands and thousands of dioceses, that is a very overwhelming job.
And so the Holy Father is very often not directly, you know, in contact with all the candidates and aware of all the details that gets handled through the bureaucracy of the Dicastery for Bishops and the fact that Pope Francis appointed then Cardinal Privo. As the prefect, that means the head of this dicastery, this office is a sign of kind of shared vision, right?
That he understood that his Pope Francis understood that Cardinal Privos. Now, Pope Leo understood his shared commitment to the kinds of men who ought to be put in these leadership positions, and we see that playing out in the US quite different than the people they're replacing. Cardinal Dolan, Archbishop Aquila.
These are people who as you said, David Ne, were not necessarily concerned with the peripheries. They had different ideological commitments. They were oftentimes culture warriors and we could talk about that. But I find this to be really refreshing and if it's a bellwether of what's to come, I'm really happy to see it.
What do you two think?
SCHLUMPF: I did not know Bishop Hicks personally when he was here in Chicago although a lot of folks I know him and in fact while I did not watch the live stream of his Insta. Nation. My pastor in his homily just this past weekend mentioned that he was at the installation. He was one of a lot of priests, I think hundreds maybe who can celebrated.
And he had started seminary the same year as Bishop. Arch? No, Archbishop Hicks. So he knew him well and what he highlighted in the homily was about how at the installation, the gentleman who did the first reading was actually a young person who had been at the orphanage that a. Father then Father Hicks worked at, in El Salvador and how this was a kid who had like, lost his parents, grew up in a garbage dump and this orphanage called Nuestros.
Sanos had become this like lifeline for him and how he had gotten to know Father Hicks and then, you know, that's a real symbol to have somebody. That come back and be doing the reading at your installation mass. I was also struck several commentators talked about the dominance of Spanish and his use of Spanish and in the liturgy, you know, ironically a couple days before, we have a Spanish speaking person at the Super Bowl singing, which brought in a lot of controversy from some people, maybe some Catholics.
But you know, there had been rumors before about Bishop Flores possibly being named to New York rumors that I don't think had much credibility. But I think short of naming a Hispanic, an actual Hispanic to that position, having a bishop like. Bishop Archbishop Hicks, who is steeped in the culture, knows the language, very fluent.
I think that's a good sign. I will say that I think these appointments are positive developments. You know, I have covered both Dolan and Aquila, mostly because of some of the controversies they've been involved in. And you know, while this reflects back on, and Privos from when he was the head of the Bishop's office.
It also reflects on Cardinal Pierre, who is our Nuncio, who's very involved in putting the list together and recommending Bishops for Diocese. And of course, our listeners may know that he has reached retirement age and so likely. Us will be getting a new nuncio at some point. And to me that's gonna be the very interesting and influential appointments.
I'll be very curious to see when that happens. So those are my initial thoughts. What about you, David?
DAULT: Well, so I do not know either of these. Bishop Elects Archbishop elects very well. I am impressed by Bishop Hicks in part because just being in the Chicago Archdiocese for the last 15 years I've had the chance to sort of interact with the various. The various bishops that work under the archbishop, and I have a real kind of love for this archdiocese.
So anyone who was formed in this archdiocese, I think is gonna do well in a major metropolitan area because of the emphasis that, that we have had here in this archdiocese on diversity and on kind of looking at the social teaching of the church and not simply the doctrinal teachings of the church.
I don't know as much about Bishop Ulka. I do find it impressive because I teach at a Jesuit school that he has deep roots with the Jesuits. I think that's good formation. I know that some Catholics find that to be suspect, but I find that to actually be a rather good pedigree.
And you know, the fact that he. He has had a long tenure in the area where he's going to be serving, I think is very good. But I'm kind of, you know, with all bishops, I'm always on a kind of wait and see schedule. I want to actually see the material benefits and the flourishing that happens under their watch as opposed to kind of what the potentials might be.
SCHLUMPF: Well, there's quite a bit to wait and see too, especially in New York. I mean, New York is a very. Interesting, you know, diocese in part because there is a lot of money there, there is a lot of media there. And so there's that opportunity to be on national media a lot, which, you know, Cardinal Dolan did do often doing Fox and Friends or whatever.
But also they're facing the challenges with the sex abuse and the bankruptcy and dealing with their insurance company. I mean, that story's been going on for a while, and that's, you know, something that. The new Archbishop is gonna have to step into and kind of conclude. So, there are gonna be a lot of challenges ahead and I think that while, you know, a pastor's heart is a good thing, you also need someone who's a good administrator.
And I do think it does reflect well on Leo, that he's a good administrator, that he has, you know, chosen a strong team around him and his appointing men in these positions who I think bode well for the future.
HORAN: Is there anything, I mean, I'm curious. New York is such a diverse and large diocese so I imagine the response to, the appointment of Archbishop Hicks is, has been mixed, although everything I've seen has been fairly positive. The Denver News is much more recent and so there hasn't been as much coverage.
I think one thing that is striking is that Cardinal Dolan turned 75 a year ago, almost to the day of Archbishop Hicks installation. And so Pope Francis at the time, and then Pope Leo kind of waited a little bit before. Making that kind of big move and accepting the formal canonical resignation at 75 with Archbishop Aquila.
This was not the case. He turned 75 and the Holy Sea immediately accepted his resignation. The Holy Father in the Holy Sea, I should say. And an appointment from somebody who is basically a diocese over and Colorado Springs was appointed right away. Do either of you have any kind of tea leave reading of this?
What to make of this? I mean, I think it's. Oftentimes commentators will observe. Well, you know, in the case of somebody like Cardinal Sean O'Malley in, in Boston, Pope Francis let kept him in that position years after he reached the canonical age for retirement. Yeah. What do you think about the Aquila decision?
SCHLUMPF: Well, like you said, in general that if someone stays beat past retirement, it signals that the, their boss is happy with the work they're doing and want them to continue, or it could also signal that they just don't know yet who's who best. To put there, or they're waiting for certain things to fall in place so they can move that person there.
I don't have any actual, you know, reporting or gossip on why Aquilas resignation was accepted right away. Except I will note that there are a number of. Conservative Catholic organizations that are based in the Denver Archdiocese. And so this goes back to even the previous bishop there attracting those kinds of organizations to that area.
And so I think it's a, you know, can be a tricky place too. It's not like it's Chicago or anything, so, so again, I don't know, go goca. Well, the fact that he's from the region probably is helpful in that he's not, you know, brought from the East coast or brought from real far away, you know, from a different diocese outta state.
But I think there'll be some challenges there too.
HORAN: I'll just say that it reminds me a bit of what we saw to your point, Heidi in the archdiocese of. Detroit, right? Where this was similarly, a diocese over a number of years, even decades that had grown pretty, I hate to use the word conservative, that's not even a really good description. I think the best description, especially when you look at the seminary in the Archdiocese of Detroit, is very anti Pope Francis.
So due with that as you will but you know, Pope Francis appointed a replacement for the previous archbishop there who like Aquila in Denver. And, shapu before him from Denver and then to Philadelphia, seemed to attract these anti Pope Francis you know, kind of anti periphery, anti just a lot of anti, we might say groups in organizations.
So, it's been interesting to watch what's been happening in Detroit, especially with the new archbishop who has been very vocal against the invasions of ICE and the treatment. Both in terms of policy and in language around our immigrant siblings. So I imagine that might be a precursor to what we might see in Denver under similar circumstances.
So we'll keep our eyes out on these two Episcopal appointments and these newly appointed archbishops. Sure we'll be talking about them in episodes to come as well as other appointments that. The Holy Father might be making as dioceses need to have new bishops. So we'll keep an eye on that and discuss that and we'd love to hear from you all who are listening, what your thoughts on this are.
We're gonna take a quick break and we'll be back in a moment. You're listening to the Francis Effect.
SEGMENT 2
DAULT: Just a quick note that our second segment may have some triggering aspects For those that have experienced victimization or abuse, we wanna make sure that you are not retraumatized by our discussion, and so please proceed with caution and feel free to skip that segment if you need to.
HORAN: Welcome back to The Francis Effect. I'm Dan Horan. I'm here with David Dot and Heidi Schlump. Every couple of weeks we get together to discuss a variety of topics. From a perspective informed by our shared Catholic faith at the end of January, the Department of Justice released three and a half million.
That's million with an M pages related to the investigations of the late Jeffrey Epstein. This is in response to the Epstein Files Transparency Act legislation passed by Congress last year. Though this release of documents is substantial, the release has been criticized on several fronts. First, the release is nowhere near the total number of documents called for by the legislation.
There are still several million pages of documents that have been held back, and in some cases these are for legitimate legal or security reasons. For many documents, however, the reasons are much less clear. The documents were also released in a haphazard fashion in many cases, and contrary to the instructions in the Transparency Act, names of Epstein's associates have been redacted while the names and identifying information of many victims were left exposed most disturbingly, some of the documents released contained unredacted images of minors.
Despite the attempts to obscure Epstein's associates, many are in fact named in the files around the globe. Response to these revelations has been swift. According to the Associated Press quote, former UK ambassador to Washington, Peter Mendelssohn was fired and could go to prison. And British Prime Minister Kiir Starmer faces a leadership crisis over the Mendelssohn appointment.
Senior figures have fallen in Norway, Sweden, Slovakia, and even before the latest batch of files. Andrew Mount Batten Windsor brother of King Charles II lost his honors Princely title and taxpayer funded mansion unquote in the United States, however, top officials at the Department of Justice have stated that they see no new grounds for investigations or prosecutions in the documents.
This reluctance to hold Epstein's Associates accountable, along with the batched handling of the file disclosures, has caused pain and frustration among the many survivors of Epstein's abuse network. Speaking to the BBC one victim named Lisa Phillips said, quote, we feel like they're playing some games with us, but we're not gonna stop fighting.
Unquote. A group of survivors released a video over Super Bowl weekend calling for the full release of the files. One of the most. Unexpected revelations from the release was the number of communications between Epstein and former Trump advisor Steve Bannon, about the late Pope Francis. In an email exchange from 2018, Bannon wrote to Epstein that he was trying to create media manipulations and disinformation campaigns.
That quote will take down Francis unquote, kept the commentator Andrew Chestnut. Wrote recently on pathos that quote, the Epstein files don't reveal a secret cabal capable of toppling a pope. What they do show, however, is how rightist elites operate when confronted with moral authority. They can't control.
In an age when legitimacy was eroded less by institutions than by insinuation, Pope Francis was targeted not for heresy, but for fidelity to a Catholic tradition that insists migrants are neighbors. Markets require moral limits, and the poor can't be written off as collateral damage unquote. David, there is so much to dig into here and we've only scratched the surface.
What are your initial thoughts in response to this release?
DAULT: my goodness. Well, so I. Because I grew up in a household where conspiracy was such sort of the air that we breathed. I feel like in some ways diving down this particular rabbit hole has kept me in my element and the thing that has been. Just coming to me again and again as I have been listening to commentators who have been pouring through these documents.
So, Katie Couric had a commentator on recently who was going through this. I've been looking at some others that have been just, you know, they're trained to go through these documents very quickly and to pull out some of the major threads. One of the things that stands out to me again and again as I hear this analysis and commentary is that Jeffrey Epstein didn't seem to have some kind of secret control over these moguls and other international figures.
He didn't seem to have any kind of leverage or blackmail on them. Instead, it just appears that all of these rich and powerful people really enjoyed his company. And really found him to be a fascinating person. And they also seemed to find the activities that he engaged in to either be fascinating and enjoyable or not a hindrance to their hanging out with him.
And so the first thing that I wanna say is that. It appears from just what we've seen in these documents and the analysis over the last few days, that Jeffrey Epstein wasn't some kind of nefarious Svengali like puppet master. He was just a person with really sick tastes and that there were a lot of rich people that shared his very sick tastes.
And that is why I find the the comments from the interchange between Epstein and Steve Bannon about Pope Francis to be so illuminating that there are people on the international. Stage who seemed to be not caught up in this kind of yeah, just to say licentiousness, to say shared interest in harming people and that, that, when.
Someone like Pope Francis was on the international stage and there's certainly criticisms that we can have of Pope Francis, but he was doing what I had hoped that the leadership in the Catholic church would do, and that would be standing as a moral authority and standing as a moral sort of figure against this kind of international yeah, perversion.
I don't know better ways to talk about it.
HORAN: I was really surprised to see the kind of focus and attention, the candor of. Steve Bannon in conversation with Epstein about Pope Francis. In part because a lot of the other actors and associates as we put it of Epstein, are rich and powerful. Almost exclusively men, but not just men who have material can gain materially or were involved in some of these criminal activities with sex trafficking and the like.
As the reports have alleged, but the thing about Pope Francis is that he is not, as you said, David, he is not in these circles, first of all. Second of all, you know, though, he is technically a sovereign, you know, as the the person in charge of the Holy Sea, the Vatican, which is recognized as a nation state, although very tiny, he is being targeted for his moral clarity and position in the world. It reminds me a lot of the person that Pope Francis followed his entire life, which is Jesus of Nazareth. If we look to the gospels, Jesus did not have armies. Jesus did not threaten violence. Jesus did not have money. Famously, right?
Birds of the air have nests. Foxes have dens, but the son of man has nowhere to lay his head. So what was so threatening? To the status quo, whether it's religious status quo, whether it's a social or cultural status quo, whether it's an imperial status quo when it comes to the Roman Empire, and it's kind of, you know, in its surrogates, whether you think of like King Herod and Judea and Jerusalem and so forth. And it's simply this clear moral clarity, this kind of directness that comes with, you know, somebody who is not gonna be corrupted by these things. So it's striking to me that Bannon. Was so threatened by Pope Francis and I would say by extension Pope Leo such that he would be, you know, making these statements to take Francis down.
What does that even mean? Exactly. So, you know, I think it's a real compliment to Pope Francis and his ministry and his authenticity. And I think that this is one of the things that we see in Mark's Gospel, if I may be so, you know, kind of professorial for a moment is that there are only two folks in the Gospel of Mark, which is the earliest of the canonical gospels, who knows and recognizes who Jesus actually is.
And the first one is the narrator, and the second one are the demons, right? The devils. And so it's interesting that these people engaged allegedly in these criminal activities or certainly were associates of somebody who was a convicted sex offender. That they saw that with clarity. Pope Francis' moral vision is really quite striking.
DAULT: Well, Heidi, I'd like to bring you into the conversation sort of piggybacking on this. Notion of Steve Bannon saying that he wanted to find a way to take Francis down. You've done extensive reporting on sort of right wing financing and Catholic organizations that are pushing a kind of more conservative ideological agenda here in the United States.
When we hear comments like that from this interchange between Epstein and Bannon, do you find any kind of interface between those kind of sentiments at that level and what you've been reporting on and seeing you know, across the United States with certain conservative organizations?
SCHLUMPF: Yeah, well certainly Bannon and others were involved in funding and or. Organizing and promoting and giving media attention to some of these organizations that were pushing back on Francis. So, that doesn't surprise me, although I'm gonna have to admit, like for my own mental health, I have not stayed on top of this Epstein story and I'm, I have been grateful.
I haven't had to write about it yet. It's just sickening. To me to see the way some groups of people are dismissing this, like that some, somehow the age of the young women or even the term young women instead of girls is. You know, somehow excuses this or people are willing to look the other way because it's their people who are ending up, you know, on these lists.
I have been gratified to see some on the left be very quick to say like, I used to respect that person, or I used to care what Noam Chomsky used to say, or Deepak Chopra or whoever it might be. And then finding out this about them said, oh. I was wrong. This person clearly doesn't have a moral compass.
I'm not seeing that as much on the right. Although there's some of that. So yeah, I mean, I think that all of these things are tied together and if anything, Catholic, the Catholic church should be a model for how. Sexual abuse of minors is not something you want to ignore that everyday people are not happy about this.
And despite the administration's attempts to distract us with chaos in so many spheres of the world right now people are still talking about this and people still care about this. So.
DAULT: Well, you are pointing to something that I want to foreground and I want to also honor the fact that you have chosen not to sort of dive deeply into this, but the care for the victims. Has been atrocious and we are seeing this. At many levels. And so let me make a couple of general statements and then I'll kind of, focus in here.
The first general statement is, as we've said several times in this program, Donald Trump is not the locust of the issue that we're dealing with here. It is an entire system of bigotries and protections where Donald Trump is the figurehead. But there are a lot of people that have been enabling Donald Trump in a similar fashion.
Jeffrey Epstein was definitely a horrific figure, but he has been. Mischaracterized in a lot of the narratives around this as being the kind of soul figure. But I'm very interested in all of the people that associated with him and if he was opposed. So if he was running a sex trafficking ring, which was what he was being accused of, then who were all the people that he was sex trafficking.
And so, you know, there is an entire organization of protections that still exist where victims are not believed, or if they are able to speak up, they are in some way pushed to the side or further victimized. But we're seeing this happen at the level of the Justice Department. The way that they released this tranche of documents, first of all, didn't follow the way that the law was stated, but also their names have continually been sort of put into the public, but the perpetrator's names have been protected. So in all of these sorts of cases, we need to be very concerned about this and the connection with the way that the Catholic church in the past has handled its own sexual abuse crises.
I think we as faithful Catholics, we who stay in the church, we who understand. All of the horrors that the church is capable of. We especially need to be speaking up right now on behalf of the victims. We need to be saying that we believe them, and we need to be saying that justice needs to be served.
That we can't simply as the administration and the Justice Department has said, we can't simply say, well now you've seen the documents. There's nothing more to do. We need to be holding people accountable. But we are finding that incredibly difficult these days as a society, which. To our eternal shame listeners I recognize that this may have been a very triggering topic for some of you.
And so please know that if you yourself, have been involved in some kind of victimization or abuse, we are with you in solidarity and in prayer, and we want to fight for justice and for your protection. And I know that we speak for many Catholics of goodwill when we say that,
alright, so listeners, we are going to step away from this topic and when we come back in just a few moments Heidi will be picking up with her conversation with Father Isaac Slater talking about spiritual practices of not judging others. So with that, you're listening to the Francis Effect.
Please stay with us.
SEGMENT 3
SCHLUMPF: Welcome back to The Francis Effect. I'm Heidi Schlump with today's guest, father Isaac Slater, a Trappist monk of the Abbey of Genesee in New York, where he works with novice monks and in the infirmary Over the years, he has also helped bake the monk's bread, tended the Japanese garden, and helped out with the plumbing department.
Isaac is also a poet and a spiritual writer. Originally from the Toronto area. Isaac studied literature and philosophy at Trent University in Ontario. As an undergraduate, he had a conversion experience and got more serious about his faith. He entered the Abbey literally on the eve of the new millennium, December 31st, 1999, and is currently one of about two dozen monks living there.
He was ordained a priest in 2012. Isaac writes poetry under the name John Slater and is the author of a book about St. Bernard of Clairvaux. His latest book from Liturgical Press is titled, do Not Judge Anyone. Desert Wisdom for a Polarized World. As the season of Lent approaches, we're grateful to Isaac for joining us to share some of his wisdom.
So welcome to the Francis Effect. Isaac.
SLATER: Thanks very much. Happy to be here.
SCHLUMPF: Well, I am curious, we're starting to get ready for Lent here, Ash Wednesday is coming. How do monks prepare for Lent? I mean, isn't your whole life one of prayer and spiritual practice? So, do you personally give up something for Lent, or how's the season marked at the Abbey?
SLATER: Yeah. St. Benedict talks about amongst life should be a perpetual. Lent, which sounds quite grim really when think of giving up chocolate forever or what, you know, things like that. But in fact, it's really means a perpetual springtime lent is associated with spring and with what Benedict calls a continuous longing for Easter with spiritual joy.
So if you think of a perpetual springtime and a continuous longing for Easter in spiritual joy, it becomes a little more. Appetizing. And so there's an intensification of the life that we're already living the rest of the year, hopefully. And there's changes in the liturgy, and we do give something up, but we also add something in.
So we give up a little bit of material food, little more silence, little less eating. But we also select a particular book to read for Lent our Lentin book. And these are distributed in a right. They're handed out in the first Sunday of Lent, and each monk prays about and discerns a book that they will read over the course of Lent.
And then each night during lent a bell rings at a certain time and we all sit in our separate places or together in the library and read for a certain period of time. So we're taking in extra spiritual nourishment as well as giving up some material nourishment. I think that's a useful principle.
SCHLUMPF: So you're not all reading the same book. You each pick your own
SLATER: Yes. Right?
SCHLUMPF: Have you picked your book for this year yet?
SLATER: Yes.
SCHLUMPF: And is it something you share or
SLATER: Oh, sure. Yeah. I'm reading the attack on by ki actually.
SCHLUMPF: Ah, okay. That sounds
SLATER: talking about, I mean, Christendom of his time, very compromised. And I'm just thinking of Christianity in our cont contemporary climate and all kinds of counter witness and so on. So maybe it'll be a fitting read.
SCHLUMPF: Yes. Yes. Well, I know one of the thing that some Catholics might be thinking of trying to be better at or give up for Lent is. Judging and being judgemental. So I love that you've written a whole book about this in which you note that this is something monks throughout history have emphasized and clearly, like immediately sprung to mind for me was Jesus saying, judge, not right lust, he be judged.
So why do you think this topic of judging and being judgemental is so important to our spiritual lives?
SLATER: Well, I think because it has to do fundamentally with identity, and I think this is part of the reason why people are so attached to their judgments and their outlook is that we gain our sense of self too often by. Adopting this view over and against that view by holding this and not that, and by defining ourselves by what we're not, as a way to build ourselves up often by putting other people down.
And because it has fundamentally to do with our sense of who we are with our very existence, we feel a sense of existential threat when somebody questions our view.
SCHLUMPF: Well, I know that judgmentalism has probably been a problem throughout, you know, ever since there's been human beings, but it does seem like it might be a particularly urgent. Issue in these times that are so polarized. And you mentioned that in the subtitle of your book. So I mean, I can't help but think of all the very mean-spirited judging that goes on, particularly on social media, often by people who don't know one another.
What do you think's going on there? Why? What does Christian spirituality or the practice of humility maybe have to say about this, especially in our times.
SLATER: I think when there's great fear and insecurity, which again at root is insecurity about my identity or my ongoing existence, and I feel under siege. Then this tendency to lash out or to get a kind of fix, a boost of self-esteem by a righteous indignation and so on becomes quite addictive. In fact, there have been studies that look at how the chemical response in your brain when you feel righteous indignation is triggering similar process to what people experience who are hooked on opioids.
So it's very powerful that little, and you know, we may be just getting micro doses through our favorite you know, TV talk shows or something during the day and the media that we consume, but it can become quite addictive. We're getting this little burst of. Chemical response every time we feel that righteous indignation and we can easily get hooked on it.
And in terms of Christian spirituality, I mean this way of thinking that is over and against others is fundamentally what Paul means by the flesh. The flesh doesn't mean entirely or primarily self-indulgence, hedonism, et cetera, although it includes that it has to do with the spirit of faction. Rivalry of this building an identity for ourselves, making a name for ourselves over and against the other.
Whereas the way of the gospel and the way of non-judgment in this sense is being with and for everyone. It has a universal dimension with and for the good of every human life and all creation.
SCHLUMPF: So just to follow up though, how do you do that? Is it a just enough to say this is what God wants for me and I'm gonna try to do it more? You mentioned that it might be connected to self-esteem, and so is having a healthy self-esteem maybe a good start for that? Or how do you suggest people do this practice?
SLATER: I think. Two things I would say are, one is that it has to be anchored in some kind of contemplative prayer, by which I mean some simply a kind of prayer that has to do with presence and listening. And it's a receptive space where we can allow whatever is boiling within us to come up to the surface and we can look at it without judging.
In that sphere. So we have to first start to practice non-judging at that level, at the interior level, and form the habit of not reacting with judgementalism to the thoughts that arise in our own hearts. We have to have a certain kind of permissiveness and freedom to allow things to arise within us.
And then, you know, when, then we can start to notice just how judgmental we are. So it's not a question of being judgmental about our judgmentalism. You can see how that would be a trap, right? And that's not helpful. But it's about allowing ourselves to notice how frequently we are judgmental or moralistic or overly harsh and reactive, and then to look at that with some objectivity.
And you know, feel that, and then see if we can find our way to what's at the root of it. You know, because there's always some underlying hurt there that's behind this reactivity and righteous indignation. And if we can work with that and hold that and explore that in prayer, then we can start to get somewhere.
So contemplative prayer, and then this work of insight or reflection where we start to feel our way to what might be underlying our reactions of righteous indignation.
SCHLUMPF: So I shouldn't be surprised that a monk is telling me that some contemplative practices are gonna be necessary to to address this particular issue in people's lives. Yeah. Yeah.
SLATER: But very simple. Nothing exotic or technical it. It's simply spending some time, each day getting quiet, letting things settle and resting in the Lord's presence. It just. Whatever surface is bringing it before him, and it is very simple. We do it naturally. I think it's just we need to be deliberate about it in a fast-paced environment.
SCHLUMPF: And you mentioned that this is something that the Desert Fathers and mothers also addressed quite a bit. And can you just explain briefly for our listeners who, what, who the desert fathers and mothers are and why was judgmentalism and humility such important issues for them?
SLATER: So the Desert fathers and mothers were the first monks beginning around the third century, mostly in Egypt and Palestine. Different parts of the world gradually. And so before monasteries became big institutions and monolithic buildings, they started quite small and you'd have one kind of charismatic.
Guru like figure, and a small cadre of disciples gathered around him that would be practicing interior prayer and chanting the Psalms, doing some simple manual work. And they lived in this way. And there are many of their sayings that have come down to us, the sayings of the Desert Fathers. And it's always been striking to me that so many of these sayings have to do with not judging.
In fact, they say emphatically. Only do not judge and you'll be saved. Like this is the heart of the gospel. And why would they put such emphasis on not judging? Why do they see it as so central to the practice of the gospel? And that's what my book is exploring.
SCHLUMPF: I think for some people they might think, you know, you called it righteous indignation, that can be associated with Christianity. Today we have a lot of Christians who are. Are, you know, maybe understandably indignant about some things. So let me just play devil's advocate. Are there times when we do need to judge others, or would you say, when in doubt, avoid that still?
SLATER: I mean, there's definitely a time for challenging injustice and holding people accountable, but I think that. Judging the question is, you know, what did Jesus mean when he said, do not judge. I mean, Jesus threw the the money lenders out of the temple and he blasted the Pharisees in no uncertain terms, and he was capable of showing something that looked like righteous indignation.
So what is, when Jesus says, do not judge, what kind of judgment is he talking about? And I think it's judgment as condemnation as this over and against. Where there's a selfish element of putting myself up to put the other person down. It's moralizing, in other words. And I would distinguish that from, you know, accountability about challenging injustice, bringing things to light and so on.
And I think that, you know, judgementalism in this sense is a highly reactive behavior. It's just bouncing off of the hatred of the aggressor. The oppressor. It's just reactive, and I don't think that's an effective way to counter injustice. If you're just reacting off of the hatred of the other person, you're not gonna get anywhere.
So it's not about sitting on your hands, it's not about not criticizing injustice or taking action against injustice. It's about finding a deeper level and a more effective way to do that. By not reacting, by cultivating this non-reactivity, and the root of that is contemplative practice of prayer, whatever that looks like for a person.
SCHLUMPF: Yeah, I mean, it sounds, you're describing, I think what's happening a lot in our country today. A lot of bouncing back. Hey. Hatred, reflecting back hatred to one another. You know, you've talked about the importance of putting yourself in some contemplation, and I know that for monks, you said there's periods of silence already in your daily life and you increase that during Lent.
The idea of being silent can seem like a challenge to people, but can you maybe talk a little bit about that spiritual practice and whether that might, maybe that might be something people might consider as a Lenin discipline.
SLATER: Yeah, I think it's a great practice and I think we hunger for silence humanly, all of us. We need rest. We need space Also. Leisure is something that we. Talk a lot about leisure in the sense of creating a spacious free environment where you have time for a good conversation. You have time to read well, to really give yourself over to prayer without being in a hurry.
So that practice of leisure is something really crucial and silence. I mean, I can remember my. One way I can think about the start of my vocational journey was a first retreat that I went on at a Jesuit retreat center when I was maybe 17, and it was a silent retreat. That kind of attracted me and intimidated me at the same time, and it was very challenging to keep silence for a weekend, but it was my first experience of being with other men out in the country in a scheduled, ordered environment where you had this sense of spaciousness and leisure.
And I just gravitated to that as a very healing environment. And I think it's something that all of us need more of. Just quiet enough quiet in our lives, enough rest and spaciousness and solitude in our lives that we can really taste what we're really experiencing in life. You know, I think so often we get indigestion.
'cause there's so much coming in, we haven't had a chance to digest what we've just eaten, and then we're taking in more and it never settles. We never assimilate our own experiences.
SCHLUMPF: So true. So would you say, you mentioned, okay, so silence and contemplation and leisure. I like that. Are there any other lessons from monastic life that might be helpful to people in these poll? Times, or that might be something they could consider as part of their Lenin practices.
SLATER: I think those are key ones. I mean, another whole dimension of monastic life is living together in community. And with many different personalities and generations and ethnicities and background cultures, education levels, and the thing that you have in common is your shared faith. But kind of apart, that's a common denominator.
But apart from that, and even what that looks like, that's experienced very differently by different people. So, you know, living together in relative harmony, you learn living in close quarters to sort of put aside or sit lightly towards your own preferences. You also learn that even if you have the right answer in a given situation, it's usually gonna be refined and strengthened.
By other people in the group and that you learn that you have blind spots. Other people see things that you're not seeing. So, you know, I guess living in the different communities that people do, not religious communities necessarily, but being open to that awareness that other people. See things that we don't, you know, and that has to do with humility, which you mentioned before.
It's kind of, epistemic. Humility. Humility about what we can know or what we, yeah.
SCHLUMPF: Well, I think that resonates for someone who lives in a marriage, you know, community and a family, because we also have to practice those ways of being with other people too. So thank you for that. But it must be even harder with 24, 20 some other people.
SLATER: Yeah, it's the hardest part. You know, people ask me, what's the hardest part you think? Oh, getting up at three o'clock in the morning and fasting. You get used to all of that. After a certain point, you've kind of internalized the rhythm and you don't really think about it too much anymore. But it's the community environment, different personalities that rub you the wrong way.
The chemistry. And there's no escape from that. You know, you have to work out why is it that this person gets under my skin? And you have to develop a way of living alongside them with respect and in relative harmony for the sake of the common good.
SCHLUMPF: Well, and like you said, with that undergirding of faith that you have in common, that makes, gives you, it makes it a little easier. It gives you a reason to do it.
SLATER: Sure.
SCHLUMPF: I'm so grateful that you were willing to come on the pod, on the podcast, Isaac, and we will link to your book. You did wanna mention though that you also have another book coming out.
Did you wanna mention that briefly?
SLATER: Sure, and maybe I could just briefly tell the story, be behind it. So in the, this is kind of the connection between the two books in the Do not Judge Anyone book. I tell a story about a Japanese poet named Han, and I'll tell the story in a minute, but the book that's just about to come out in a week or so is called this and that, and his translations of poems by Han, he was a 19th century, a zen monk and hermit kind of an eccentric.
A lovable character. But he also models the kind of non-judging that is present in the Desert Fathers. And this story about him sounds like something you would read in the sayings of the Desert Fathers. So. His brother is having trouble with his teenage son. He's getting into a lot of trouble.
So the brother approaches Rio Con and asks if he and his son can come out to his Hermitage and spend a week in the country hoping that. His uncle, who's this great holy man, will talk some sense into his teenage son. So Han says, sure, come on out. And they spend the week together. They have a great time.
They are camping and they're fishing. And the whole time Han never says a word of reproach to the boy and the father is waiting, listen, you know, hoping he's gonna, you know, get after him soon and teach him a lesson or something. And he never says a word the whole time. And then just as they're leaving.
The teenager reaches down to tie up the sandal of the old man, Rio Con, which has come on undone. And he, as he's tying up the sandal, he feels something wet on the back of his neck. And here his uncle is weeping over him and he looks up and he realizes how much his behavior is hurting people that love him, and it motivates him to change.
And that's it. The fact that he was so non-judging and expressed this openness at the level of the heart. And this vulnerability so moved the young man that he wanted to make a change. He was motivated to make a change, whereas, you know, no amount of finger wagging would ever bring about that quality of true conversion.
And that's what God is aiming to provoke. That's why he went to the cross. That's what he wants to awaken in our hearts, is this level of gratuitous love. And so often Christianity has been hijacked by the super ego and the finger wagging moralizing tendency, which is counterproductive.
SCHLUMPF: Hmm, Good advice for me, a mother of a teenager also. So thank you. That's a great story. Well, like I said, we'll link to your books in this. Notes and we're so grateful to you for being a part of the podcast.
SLATER: you very much.
SCHLUMPF: and thank you to listeners. We hope everyone has a blessed Ash Wednesday, and we will see you on the next episode of the Francis Effect.