LGBTQIA+ Jubilee pilgrimage, RFK and vaccines, and an interview with Joe Paprocki

Heidi, Daniel, and David look at the unsettling shifts in America's vaccine policies, and the recent pilgrimage to Rome by LGBTQIA+ Catholics. Heidi interviews author and catechist Joe Paprocki.

INTRO

ICE threatens Chicago and its citizens

Responses by the Mayor of Chicago, and Governor Pritzker

Theology seminar on the life and legacy of Pope Francis

LGBTQIA+ JUBILEE PILGRIMAGE TO ROME

Fr. Martin’s audience with Fr. James Martin

Overview of the pilgrimage

Inclusion on the calendar?

“Semi-official,” according to Fr. Martin

“Visibility leads to witness”

Italian group of LGBTQIA+ pilgrims

Pope Leo also meeting with Cardinal Burke

The Gospel of Life, by Pope John Paul II

RFK, Jr. AND THE CHANGING VACCINE LANDSCAPE

The “common good” is not about “what’s best for the most,” it’s about solidarity with the vulnerable

A major pro-life issue

Recency bias

TRANSCRIPT

SEGMENT 1

DAULT: Hello and welcome to the Francis Effect Podcast. My name is David Dalt. I host a radio show called Things Not Seen about Culture and Faith, and I'm an assistant professor of Christian Spirituality at the Institute of Pastoral Studies at Loyola University Chicago. I'm here with my friends Heidi Schlump and Dan Haran.

Heidi is an award-winning journalist and part-time faculty at Loyola University Chicago. Dan is professor of philosophy, religious studies and theology at St. Mary's College in Notre Dame, Indiana. He is also affiliated professor of Spirituality at the Oblate School of Theology in San Antonio, Texas.

Every couple of weeks we get together to discuss news and events through a lens of our shared Catholic faith. Dan and Heidi, welcome to you both. Heidi. How have you been?

SCHLUMPF: I wish I could say I was doing great. I'm personally doing great, but as a Chicagoan, I'm a little concerned about, I'm more than a little concerned about the threats to bring a. Federal military troops to my city, and I know that as former Chicagoan, in other Chicagoan, you may share my concerns.

I bet posted on social media over the weekend that we've had to have some hard conversations in our family about what our teenage children should do if they're approached by masked. Unmarked people trying to take them away and I got some good advice. So just in case anyone needs to know, you're supposed to, you know, ask am I being detained?

And if they say no, say, am I free to go? And then you're supposed to leave. But it's pretty frightening. And my kids are a little bit nervous. One of our children goes to a school in probably the second most Latino neighborhood in our city. And both of my kids are kids of color, so they are concerned.

So prayers for Chicago and all the cities being affected by this. Clearly illegal and problematic stuff going on, but otherwise I'm fine. But I have to say it's very top of mind for a lot of folks here in this city and especially for me. How about you Dandy? Are you safe there in South Bend?

HORAN: as safe as one can be, as Notre Dame football season gets underway, especially with the first loss, that I learned from my students. I'm not a football fan as listeners. No, it's not basketball season yet. So as far as I'm concerned, there are no sports. But yeah I mean, I'm with you in solidarity, Heidi as somebody who lived for many years in Chicago.

And Chicago is the nearest big city to South Bend here. And so we do feel like a, something of an exce herb from Chicagoland. Yeah, it's been deeply troubling. I have to say. I've been very impressed with the mayor of Chicago and Governor Pritzker. I think they have been very strong in their response and I've seen some interesting proposed tactics from, in terms of it's not even civil disobedience, it's 'cause it's civil action within the structures of local government.

I will just say without launching into a kind of mini segment here, that. You know, this episode may be alternatively titled like, irony upon Irony because here is a Republican administration famously, you know, anti big government. This goes back certainly to the Reagan administration. Leaving things to the States is a famous sort of expression of these sorts.

And here is. The president of the United States and his executive branch impinging on the freedom of local cities and states to exercise their constitutional authority and responsibility. So it is troubling. It's troubling on many levels. And you know, for all my friends and neighbors there in Chicago, you're in my prayers.

And Heidi, you and your family, and David, yours as well, in a special way, I will say on a maybe brighter note I, last week I was on took part as one of a handful of panelists for a theology. Virtual seminar that reflected on the legacy, the life legacy of Pope Francis. And it was a I felt, you know, really honored to be a part of this group because it included a number of really esteemed theologians from around the globe, including professor, father Tom Massaro from Fordham professor Emerita emeritus, Peter fan from Georgetown, professor Mario Aguilar.

University of St. Andrews Dr. Jennifer will Hoyt from the Pacific Northwest and yours truly. And it was really wonderful to kind of look back as excited and supportive as everybody is about Pope Leo and his new ministry. It was really great to spend some time, a few months after the death of Pope Francis and the new conclave to reflect together.

Other than that I'm plugging along. We're in week three here of the semester, and I know David always gives us, and I'm sure we're. To get an update on the, on his current writing projects. But I'll say I'm a little bit slow with my two major book projects right now because I am trying to finish some smaller article in book chapter deadlines.

So the three of us know a lot about deadlines and writing and getting these things underway. So, yeah. As David, you are. Keen to do. I request the prayers and solidarity of our listeners as I try to get that stuff done in time. Speaking of which, what are you up to, David? How are you faring with all that's happening in the windy, windy city?

DAULT: Well, I certainly welcome prayers for productivity. I'm looking over at my little desk here and looking at my very long to-do list, which has about half the things crossed off, and it is still a fully packed single. Single spaced legal legal tablets worth of things. So there's a lot of items that I still have to get to.

I'm starting the week behind, I guess is what I'm trying to say, but that's typical for week three of a semester. Like the both of you we are not sure what is gonna be happening here in Chicago where we are. Listeners will recall, we live on the south side of Chicago, which has its own sort of demographic.

Interests for organizations like ICE and other law enforcement. And on top of that my wife and I are the parents of two children who identify as queer and are on the autism spectrum. And so, there's all kind of ways that we are feeling under the microscope at this particular moment. And we have, similar to you, Heidi, had serious conversations with both of our children about kind of what to do if they were approached.

Thankfully. Here in the Chicago public school system we have gotten indications from our local school that they are gonna be very proactive about making sure that students know their rights. Several social studies teachers are gonna be sort of staying after doing teach-ins and taught and incorporating information about the rights of citizens in their classes for the next couple of weeks.

And the school has made it very clear that they. Intend to be a safe space. And what they said in the most recent email is, if you don't know anywhere else to go, come here. We're staying open and we're gonna be available for you to support you to make sure that you have someplace that you know that you're safe.

So I'm grateful for all of that. In terms of my own work and what's going on we now have a cover for the accessorized Bible, which is always a fun thing, and I'm beginning to publicize that. We are moving things along with the covert magisterium, but also I am weekly writing essays on a little blog.

On Substack that I have started over the summer and the title of that blog is David Dalt is Writing Things. It's just very straightforward. But most recently had something come out last Thursday. I'm trying to release once a week on Thursdays and, we had just had a very good response to a little essay that I did on nihilism and responses to nihilism and how we might begin to think about our post American present.

So excited for all of that and excited also to be talking to the two of you listeners, just so that you are aware of what we're gonna be. Doing today. Coming up on the program, we have in our first segment a discussion of the recent Jubilee pilgrimage of some 1200 LGBTQIA plus Catholics to Rome to take part in the 2025 Jubilee celebrations.

We're also in the second segment gonna be looking. At the sort of unfolding issues around vaccines and RFK Junior and his influence on the sort of changing landscape of vaccines. And then in our third segment, very excited for this Heidi interviews the Catholic educator, Joe Raki about the state of Catholic education and catechesis and all of that is coming up here on the Francis Effect.

We'll be back in just a moment. Please stay with us.

SEGMENT 2

HORAN: Welcome back to The Francis Effect. I'm Dan Horan and I'm here with David Dolt and Heidi Schlump. Every couple of weeks we get together to discuss a variety of topics from a perspective informed by our Catholic faith. Earlier this month, father James Martin had a private audience with Pope Leo the 14th.

According to the National Catholic Reporter Pope Leo to Father Martin, that he intended to continue Pope Francis' policy of LGBTQ plus acceptance in the church, and he encouraged Martin to keep up his advocacy. After the meeting, Martin told the Associated press quote. I heard the same message from Pope Leo that I heard from Pope Francis, which is the desire to welcome all people, including L-G-B-T-Q people.

It was wonderful. It was very consoling and very encouraging, and frankly a lot of fun, unquote, 2025 is a jubilee year, and for the last nine months, groups from all over the world have been making pilgrimages to Rome to worship and celebrate. This past week, a group of 1200 lgbtqia plus Catholics have come to Rome as part of that ongoing celebration.

The group has been organized by Outreach, an organization that Father Martin helped found that seeks to support and minister with the LGBTQIA plus Catholic community. Unlike other pilgrimages which are officially recognized by the Vatican and noted unofficial calendars, the outreach group carries no official designation or recognition by the Holy Sea.

Nevertheless, in light of the Pope's meeting with Father Martin earlier this month, many people are interpreting this pilgrimage as having some kind of acceptance by the Vatican, if not overt, official approval. David, how should we start thinking about all of this?

DAULT: Well, Dan, I wanna start with this whole question about whether or not this is officially recognized, getting things on the calendar and getting things recognized or blessed by the Holy Sea, or acknowledged by the Holy Sea. Listeners may not realize there's an entire political intrigue around that with the Holy Sea.

And there are layers to this. And I'm just gonna speak from anecdotal experience watching my own colleagues at Loyola University, Chicago's Institute of Pastoral Studies, trying to do their event, the building bridges north and south with Pope Francis. They actually went to the Vatican at one point to meet with Pope Francis.

They were on the official calendar. Someone at the Holy Sea removed them from the official calendar, and when they went into the meeting, Pope Francis picked up the phone and said, put them back on the official calendar. So there's this entire sort of thing about what gets recognized when and how. And so the fact that we have probably conflicting reporting about how this is being acknowledged by the Vatican, I think.

You shouldn't raise any alarm bells for people who are watching this saying, well, no, the Vatican didn't officially recognize it. There's a whole bunch of layers going on here. What is really important for listeners to know? Is that more than 1200 Catholics who identify as L-G-B-T-Q-I-A in some way have come and they have participated in the jubilee year, which is open to all it you know, the everyone, when I was there in Rome earlier this summer, we were watching group after group of pilgrim sort of coming to walk through the holy doors and to take part in the celebrations that are going on the entire year in the city.

And so this is just a group of Catholics that are going to do this. The fact that they happen to identify. As gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender. That is not in any way anything other than just they are participating in what all Catholics have been invited to do.

SCHLUMPF: Yeah, David. So I've been following along with the outreach group on social media and Michael o Locklin, who's been a guest on our show before is helping to lead that pilgrimage of that group with father Jim Martin and. Also a former guest on the show. So, what's really struck me is how it's such an important part of the pilgrim's faith to feel connected, not just maybe in their L-G-B-T-Q Friendly Parish, but to the Universal Church and to be in Rome for this like worldwide church-wide.

Event. And so, some of the other news reports about the various groups that have been part of this pilgrimage really emphasize people who've maybe been fallen away from the church but are feeling very welcome by being there. Now the reaction from some people has been another story. And I think a lot of this has to do with, you know, people on both sides of the ideological spectrum about the L-G-B-T-Q welcoming in the church are not sure where Pope Leo is on this issue. So you may recall that right as he was named, or even before he was named, many people were looking at a statement that he had made earlier that seemed to be not super open to L-G-B-T-Q people.

So people are trying to. Look into every little thing and say, does this, you know, what does this mean? Does this signify whether he's pro or anti? And so the fact that it was technically on the calendar, I think Jim Martin called it semi-official, which is his words, not the Vaticans. Is cause for.

You know, more progressive people to be think positively about this. I know that there are some conservative traditionalist Catholics online who kind of have their undies in a bundle about this, especially the Jim Martin audience, because he can be a real lightning rod for people. They've decided he's, you know, so terrible, even though he totally abides by church teaching.

And when he came out and shared that he felt positive about his meeting with Pope Francis this has a number of conservatives who have been trying to like, spin the storyline of like, don't worry, he's one of us. You know, there's kind of this excitement, especially around the Latin mass. So I don't know.

I mean, I think there's a lot to unpack there, but a lot of it is all trying to make. As much as you, you know, trying to come up with some sort of view that probably fits what you already thought before based on some minute thing, like a listing on a calendar that doesn't make something official.

HORAN: I think that's a good point and you're raising some really interesting perspectives and observations there, Heidi. I wanna like maybe zoom back out to something that David, you started with and Heidi you built on, which is one hand, something that seems really insignificant. You know, when we talk about what is official, what is on the calendar, what is, you know, programmatically part of a, you know, jubilee year, what is kind of ad hoc, what you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

And just think about the significance of visibility. We often talk about visibility and representation as really important, and they are right. So if we talk about persons of color, who are represented in film and in music and in movies and in tv. Or we can talk about like the impact of Ellen's coming out in the nineties or Will and Grace, or we can go on and on about the various kind of increasing visibility of LGBTQ plus people in the media.

And we can say the same thing about trans actors and actresses and so forth. And so I think visibility is It's not something that is easily, it should be easily dismissed or looked over, and so I think the visibility leads to witness and I was really struck, the first I heard about.

This LGBTQ plus pilgrimage effort was not actually father Martin and Michael Locklin and the outreach media group's pilgrimage, as wonderful as that is coming from the United States. But it was this Italian group of pilgrims of L-G-B-T-Q Pilgrims who were walking across Italy toward Vatican City as part of the Jubilee celebration.

And one of the things that really struck me about that is. Again, the witness that brings, right? So that they're witnessing their faith in a way that is really, I would say in the tradition of the Greek origins of the word martyrdom, giving testimony, giving kind of witness to their faith when it's risky.

Right. It's pretty easy for a heterosexual couple for straight people, for cis people who may not feel the kind of being pushed to the margins or on the outside of the church to make a pilgrimage to Rome during this jubilee year or to express their faith in a public way. But when you've been a community of people who even in our conversation has highlighted that there's question about.

Acceptance question about validity, questions about one's very identity. It really is powerful. And I just wanna highlight one other thing about the power of visibility is on the positive side, visibility leads to normalcy in a very good way. So we can think about this in the mid 20th century with women working outside the home.

At first that was scandalous. Even in television even, you know, Murphy Brown was considered like really progressive, you know, in the late 20th century for our Gen Zers and Alphas out there. But you know, that, that becomes a way that people. Start to see this is real. This is people's lived experience, this is reality.

It may be different from mine. It isn't meant to be frightening. I shouldn't be afraid, I shouldn't be hostile and so forth. And I think, Heidi, your point about where some, I hate to call them conservative 'cause there's nothing conservative about being dehumanizing or dismissive or, you know, malicious.

But when you see homophobic and transphobic activists getting really worked up about the acknowledgement of. Queer people and queer people who are exercising their faith in a very public and sincere way. It leads to things like former Archbishop Shapu, right, who's retired, the retired Archbishop of Philadelphia, who used to get so upset about using the word gay or saying L-G-B-T-Q in official church settings because it somehow gave credence to the reality of people who actually exist.

And so I use that as an illustration for the people who are, as you said, kind of worked up online and maybe in real life to say that. You know that fear is an A testament to the power of the witness visibility.

DAULT: One other minor point on the, this issue of visibility. Some of the criticisms that I've been seeing from the more sort of right-leaning commentators is when they will see pictures of these 1200 plus L-G-B-Q-A. Persons like in the jsu, which is the Jesuit main church there in Rome. One of the things that got commented on was the fact of, oh, they're all in t-shirts.

They're all, you know, they don't even, they don't even show respect to the worship and the liturgy. And what I want to stress to listeners is that if you see. Criticisms like that. Having been in Rome and having watched group after group of pilgrims come, especially to the Vatican, they come in matching T-shirts, they come in shorts because it is very hot in Rome.

It is above 90 degrees in Rome in the summer. And so they are dressing for the weather and they are dressing to be a visible group. And the way that this works is, you know, normally the. The sort of courtyard in St. Peter's square is open and people can go. This year it has been cordoned off so that these groups can move sort of smoothly to the holy doors.

And so there is literally a kind of set of sawhorses that kind of go from about a mile back south of the Vatican and kind of lead up through St. Peters Square to the Holy Doors and watching it from earlier in the summer. Group after group of 50 or a hundred pilgrims will come through this cordon space and they will come as a visible mask.

They are all wearing the same, oftentimes the same kind of clothing. They are oftentimes carrying across. They're oftentimes chanting or singing or saying the rosary, and it is a very blessed and reverent sort of event. Even though they are dressed in a way that from the outside might look like they are not being reverent.

I just want to stress, if this is in any way, like what I saw earlier this summer these these parishioners approached the jsu. They approached the Vatican, they approached these other churches with the holy doors in Rome. With great reverence and in the manner of all the other pilgrims that I saw.

So in terms of like the criticism that gets that gets sometimes foisted off against them, it is a kind of ignorant criticism about the context and what is actually happening during the jubilee year.

SCHLUMPF: So, yeah, I mean that, You talked about that mass and also there was a program at the Jesuit center there in Rome. So it, there were also a number of, you know, pre. Bishops, I think even one cardinal who were part of this as well. So again, this shows the level of participation and acceptance that's going on at this high level.

I will say in reading some of the back and forth on, on both sides in people trying to analyze this, it does seem to me that, you know, and I'm very cautious about saying anything about Pope Leo yet, but it does seem to me that he, it is not gonna be easy to pin down based on any one dis, you know, decision or move.

So, for example, this idea that he met with Jim Martin might make progressives happy, might make traditionalists upset, but he also met with Cardinal Burke. You know, so, I thi I don't know if this is like intentional on his part to kind of present him as being open to all or both sides of him or something, but I just think it's going to, you know, any analysis that relies on one move by this Pope I think is going to be probably inaccurate or at least incomplete.

HORAN: But that's, I think that's a cautionary tale across the board. You know, it's a good thing to raise, which is. You know, the Rorschach test in this case of the Pope or of any new sort of global leader or figure it, it is a lot of projection, right? It's a lot of looking for what we want to justify, what our particular views are, which is, you know, the kind of state of affairs today.

This is how we've become so polarized, this is how we've become so unable to dialogue with one another. And you know, I do wonder if actually we should just let Pope Leo be Pope Leo. And you know, and again, even I hesitate. Here because I think, again, the things that Pope Francis spoke out about, you know, war and peace, the same sorts of things John Paul II spoke out about, you know, in his encyclicals, the Gospel of life and elsewhere like there, there isn't a departure, right?

Again, this is a sort of projection. You know, the inclusion, Pope Francis never changed anything when it came to like the theology of the Sacrament of Marriage. And yet you would hear people like Cardinal Burke or Archbishop Chappo or others. Speak as if he did. And so I do think projection works in all directions.

We should avoid that at all costs. And you know, again, re as Pope Francis used to say, and I think Pope Leo would affirm maybe by the fact that he can't be pinned down so easily, we should return to the basics. Look at the gospel, look at the creed, look at how Jesus lived and act. And David a call back to your comment about attire.

You know, I think the people who are upset about. Pilgrims in the, in the God awful heat and Swampiness of the summer in Rome wearing shorts and t-shirts will probably get upset with the crucifix and how nearly naked Jesus is often depicted. I think that, you know, maybe they should share their concerns in that regard.

I'm just kidding. Obviously.

DAULT: I, I wanna say one more thing about visibility and identity. We've touched on it in this conversation. One of my philosophical. Stones is Thomas Hobbes, and I'm not gonna go down a rabbit hole of Hobbes here, but I am gonna briefly touch on a distinction that Hobbes makes in some of his writings. So oftentimes we think about identity and identification as being a kind of visibility, and I think that's absolutely what you were saying.

Dan and I absolutely agree with it. Does the person who is in a visible place look like the extraordinary variety of God's creation? Are they rep? Do we see a representation of that extraordinary variety, or do we only see one particular type of person represented in a church function? In church leadership?

And I think that kind of visibility where we can see the extraordinary variety displayed is absolutely important. But Hobbes. Talks about a different kind of identification. And it is the kind of identification that happens when someone advocates for you. So, for example, when you're in a court of law, your attorney might not look like you, but your attorney is there to represent your interests and to vigorously make sure that you flourish as a result of the proceedings.

And so we can also ask, not only are we seeing a visible representation of the variety. But also are there those in positions of leadership who will vigorously defend that variety and work for the flourishing of that variety. And I will say. I have been heartened by some of the things that I have seen by Pope Leo in terms of that second way of identifying that, the welcoming of father Martin the sort of nod that has come at a couple of points with regard to L-G-B-T-Q-I-A people, even if there's not a kind of official visible.

Variety. Yet with the leadership, there's at least a sense in which you are welcomed here and you will be defended here. And I hope that continues to deepen and I hope that continues to be part of the visible church that we are a part of moving forward. Listeners, I know that you have feelings about this as well. We would love to hear from you, especially if you have family members or loved ones or friends who feel under threat, either from the current state of affairs in politics or under threat from the church. Please know that we are in solidarity with you and we are working to make a church together that is reflective of the extraordinary variety of God's creation.

But for now, we're gonna leave this conversation and take a short break When we return, we'll be talking about RFK and vaccines. This is the Francis Effect. Please stay with us.

SEGMENT 3

DAULT: Welcome back to The Francis Effect. I'm David Dult and I'm here with Dan Harran and Heidi Schlump. Every couple of weeks we get together to discuss a variety of topics from a perspective informed by our Catholic faith. Last Thursday, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. The Secretary for Health and Human Services in the Trump administration testified before the Senate Finance Committee.

The ostensible reason for this testimony was budgetary. However, senators from both sides of the aisle had pressing questions for Kennedy about his anti-vaccination views and policies, as well as his having pressured the recently confirmed centers for Disease Control and Prevention direct. Susan Menez. to resign the week before the hearing. The hearing grew contentious fairly quickly as Kennedy refused to back down from his claims about the CDC staff views on vaccines and their impacts and budgetary decisions such as cutting more than $500 million in MRNA vaccine research, scientific experts say such actions and policies increase the vulnerability of the US population to otherwise preventable diseases and potential future pandemics. Also last week, state officials in Florida announced plans to eliminate all childhood vaccine mandates, including those traditionally required for students to enroll in elementary schools according to the Associated Press quote, state Surgeon General, Dr.

Joseph La Dapo, who announced the decision? Wednesday cast current requirements in schools and elsewhere as immoral intrusions on people's rights that hamper parents' ability to make health decisions for their children. He said people have a right to make their own decisions, informed decisions, adding, they don't have the right to tell you what to put in your body.

Take it away from them, unquote. Both of these developments have sent shockwaves through the medical establishment with experts and medical practitioners noting the serious public health threat, such actions by HHS, the CDC and the state of Florida opposed to citizens, especially the youngest, oldest, and most vulnerable.

Earlier this week, the Washington Post reported that seven months after they voted to confirm longtime anti-vaccine activist Robert F. Kennedy Jr. As the Nation's Health Secretary, some Republican senators are having second thoughts unquote conservative pollsters are reporting the potential political blowback of Kennedy's policy direction and the Florida mandate reversal even among Trump's most ardent supporters.

The polling firm, Fabrizio Ward. Privately warned GOP lawmakers last week that overhauling vaccine policies is politically dangerous. Citing data that nearly three quarters of Trump voters believe vaccines save lives. There's a lot to unpack here, Dan, with changes and updates reported daily, where do you think we should begin when thinking about these startling developments?

HORAN: That is always the question, isn't it? With these topics in the short time that we have together, I think my instinct is to kind of begin with something that listeners will be familiar with that we've talked about in a number of. Settings over the years, and that is, you know, the Catholic prioritization of the common good.

Something we emphasize here a lot. You know, one of the things that's clear in church teaching is that the purpose of government is not about simple utilitarianism. The common good isn't about what's. Best for the most, right? Rather the churches from the church's perspective with the common good centers on are principles like solidarity, the preferential focus on the poor and the marginalized.

Those who are most at risk. And in this case, given the disproportionate threat to the youngest and the oldest in society, I would argue, and I think I'd be interested to hear what you two think about this, that we have a major pro-life issue. On our hands. Right. This is actually directly in keeping with the church's teaching about life.

Ironically, what the Florida State Surgeon General has presented as the rationale for what he describes as the immorality of vaccine mandates, which is. It's just a lot to process right there, right? That vaccine mandates are immoral. That's a pretty outrageous claim from the get go, but that his primary argumentation centers on bodily autonomy, which is ironically, again, as I mentioned earlier in the podcast, this is irony upon irony is the same logic and language that many pro-choice advocates use, right about, you know, my body, my choice.

That's exactly what the Florida State officials are saying in some ways. Maybe actually. RFK Junior is not adopting that kind of view because he wants to have much more control rather than a sort of libertarianism approach to healthcare. But I guess where I'm starting with is coming back to a kind of confusion or, you know, a perplex, which is I struggle to understand the internal logic of some of these politicians and anti-vax activists.

Understand where they're coming from. As some have noted during the COVID-19 pandemic, the fact that so many people living today have never had to confront the true horrors of some of these deadly diseases. Precisely. And again, ironically, because vaccines have reduced or practically eliminated them is crazy, right?

Like this is. Just mind boggling to me. And I think one thing maybe I might add that isn't, or hasn't been sufficiently considered yet, is what we might call from a philosophical perce perspective, recency bias, you know, and that this is playing out here. It's like saying I'm speaking to two Chicagoans here in this conversation.

But it'd be like saying, well, it hasn't snowed in Chicago. For the last five months, I haven't experienced it, so I'm gonna throw away my boots, hats, and gloves. You know, it just doesn't make any sense. I haven't experienced smallpox and my parents haven't either, so I think we should just get rid of the smallpox vaccine, or I haven't had life-threatening, you know, COVID to 19, and therefore I think nobody should have access to this vaccine, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

So there's more there, but I think these are some of my initial thoughts about it. What are you two thinking? I.

SCHLUMPF: Well, I am concerned about a lot of these moves. I don't. I don't have any plans to go to Florida, but people from Florida travel other places. So this idea that we can somehow separate ourselves from people who think different from us is not going to work. We, and that's, this is why we need to care about the common good.

Dan, you ask about the internal logic. I don't think there is a lot of internal logic, and I think some of these statements or decisions are made without. Even recognizing the irony of using bodily autonomy, for example, as part of the argument. That said, you know, there's something to be said for bodily autonomy.

I think we all have to think carefully before we put things in our body or are required to put things in our body or have our bodies used in ways against our will. That's why most. All vaccine mandates have many exceptions that people can apply for and get if they have extenuating circumstances.

But I'm kind of remembering, and maybe I'm misremembering ring with the recency bias too, but at the beginning of c when everyone was so grateful for the vaccine against the pandemic. Virus, you know, and brought quickly because of then President Donald Trump. This was like his, you know, main accomplishment if we have to give him credit for that.

People did. We're all working towards this herd immunity. And, you know, I'm all for individualism and we need, you know, to care about the individual person, but sometimes we need to think about the herd and about the common good. And like you said, this is part of our Catholic teaching that we could be stepping up and having be part of this conversation too.

HORAN: Yeah, you bring up a really good point and I might just add one other thing and I'm really interested, David, to hear what you have to say about this too. But, you know, part of the argument against, you know, in, in favor of a kind of individualism, maybe a malicious individualism in contrast to the common good or a communitarian way of thinking about society.

Is also rooted in junk science. I think that's the thing that I struggle with in terms of internal logic, right? The lack thereof it seems, which is, you know, if you think, for instance, of the reporting that has shown that some of the earliest sort of vaccine skepticism in the 1990s in particular were all rooted in kind of bogus scientific studies that alleged a connection between mercury and some vaccines as a kind of, preservative and autism that has been thoroughly debunked. Those stories and articles have been retracted from both scientific journals and popular publications, and yet this sort of. Falsity continues to exist. And we live in this age where people are very interested in conspiracy theories.

And so the suggestion or the allusion to the possibility that something is unsafe for some people is enough to kind of capture the imagination. So I think that's the other thing that I find very troubling. Mercury, by the way, is no longer in any vaccine as far as I am aware given the reporting, recent reporting in the New York Times and NPR.

But and again, I want to. Qualify that. As I like to say and joke, I'm a doctor, but I'm not a physician. And I'm not a healthcare specialist, so I wanna make that clear. But this is based on the reporting. That's pretty common knowledge that, that these sort of alleged ties are bogus.

DAULT: Well, I just wanna pick up on that and I wanna offer a thought experiment. So looking at what the health secretary in Florida said. Imagine if we were to say, okay, it is morally wrong for the Catholic Church to require families to bring their children to mass. Every family should be able to make an informed decision, take the right of the Catholic Church to demand that of your families away from them.

And think about the hue and cry that would arise from that because we recognize that the formation of a community. Is dependent sometimes on making decisions, even if the child might not, you know, want to be a part of the mass or you know, it might be inconvenient for the families or whatever. That there is a sense in which that also works for the common good.

And forgive me listeners for making this analogy, some might think that it is a little bit too facile, but I think that there is a similar kind of analogy to be made here between regular participation in the Eucharist and a kind of vaccination, that is a way of exposing yourself to something that is inherently good and that is inherently good for you.

And even though you know. It might have some drawbacks for certain families. It might have certain drawbacks or inconveniences for certain families. We would nevertheless recognize that while there are exceptions to participation in the Eucharist, there is also a very good community benefit that comes from the regular expectation that everyone would participate.

So I'm just gonna put that out there as a thought experiment to think about from a kind of. A kind of Catholic perspective. The other thing that I wanna stress is and this speaks to comments that both you, Dan, and you Heidi, have made. One of the problems that we're going to come up against is diseases like rubella.

Okay, so you can say, well, I'm not going to get my shot to defend against Rubella. And you might say, , I'm not gonna do that for my child. And look, my child didn't get sick. My child didn't get sick. My child didn't get sick. The problem with Rubella is that when Rubella is really dangerous is not when you are a child.

It is 20 and 30 years later. And the devastation that rubella can bring against a person when they were infected initially, and then that infection comes back. It can be horrible and devastating. So, so some of these are not even things that, that we will begin to see immediate effects on.

We are planting seeds that will bloom 20 and 30 years down the line when we suddenly have a major portion of the population incapacitated. Because they were exposed to childhood diseases. That and we can also say this about polio, of course that these sorts of things are terrors that are awaiting us, but we will not see the immediate effects of it, and this administration will not see the whole immediate harm.

That it is doing. And so the voting population needs to be educated about the things that are gonna be happening some decades down the line about choices that are being made right now that are gonna be horrible for your loved ones and horrible for the common good.

SCHLUMPF: So I just wanna pick up a bit on what was said at the of this, about the possible political ramifications idea. Thankfully majorities and sometimes large majorities of Americans do support, you know, vaccination science and recognize what vaccinations have done. In part because, you know, people who are senior citizens today can remember a time before some of these vaccinations.

But I guess what concerns me, and so that gives me hope somewhat, that politically we can maybe turn this around or that. I don't know if RFK can be nipped in the butt at all, but I. I get concerned because I think this is part of a broader suspicion against all institutions. And so, you know, I think sometimes there is a place for being suspicious about the government and what it's, whether it has everyone's best interest in mind.

I think there is a place to be suspicious about big pharma, for example, we learned through the, the outbreak of the painkillers, how the pharmaceutical companies didn't care about patients and only cared about profits. So I think there is some truth to that, but when we have this widespread you know, cons, suspicion of everything, and lack of trust of even science and expertise.

That opens the way for all this conspiracy information that is then shared through all these alternative media channels. And I think then it's really tough to keep those majorities who are supporting vaccine. So these are, there's a lot of like broader systemic issues that I think are at play in the whole vaccine discussion as well.

DAULT: To me this almost seems like I I'm, I'm pulling my hair out because I can't imagine that in the 21st century, this is even a matter of public debate. I cannot imagine that there is a major portion of the population that, Sees this positive, public good as some kind of threat, and there's so many reasons why we have been maneuvered into this position publicly. It has to do with a lack of education, it has to do with some serious abuses that have come from the left, not just the right with regard to Over dedication to technocracy, putting all of the eggs in the technology will fix it basket, as opposed to we have to do a lot of things to actually bolster the community safety nets and the left and the right have been abandoning that in droves over the last three or four decades. And so there is a sense of desperation and people are lashing out in whatever way that they know how.

I think that is. Predictable. But it is also something that could have been and still can be remedied if we just start to change the conversation. So I'm, you know, I'm going to, I'm lucky that I'm here in Illinois. I'm lucky that I'm here in Chicago. My kids are gonna get vaccinated this fall, come heck or high water.

But not everybody is in that same sort of situation. And the problem that comes as you both well know, and as listeners probably know, is that it's not just the availability of vax. But if the official agencies start to lessen the encouragement of going out and doing this, a whole bunch of inconveniences will jump up.

I have to take time off work. I have to go find a place. It's harder to find a place. It's more expensive. All of these things are gonna make vaccine compliance be a kind of less. Involved thing for the population. And that's going to lead to a rise in sickness. It's gonna lead to a rise in the sort of diminution of herd immunity to use that language.

And the problem that is coming up here is that we have certain people. In leadership positions and certain people in quasi leadership positions who have demonstrated that they have a kind of for want of a better word, a kind of eugenic fallacy going on, that they actually think that the weak dying is not a bad thing for society, that is not a Catholic position, friends.

And if you think that it is, you are misinformed and badly catechized. So we need to be speaking out and I wish. To all extent that we can to encourage individual bishops and the U-S-C-C-B to be speaking out about this because the common good is not just about coming to the Eucharist. It's not just about how you dress at mass.

It is whether or not the weak are dying when they could have lived, and that is a Catholic position for life.

HORAN: Well, maybe that's a good place to leave it, David, as you talk about catechesis and we get ready for our third segment, an interview with somebody who knows a lot about religious education, catholic education, and catechesis. So you're listening to The Francis Effect. We'll be back in just a moment.

SEGMENT 4

SCHLUMPF: Welcome back to The Francis Effect. I'm Heidi Schlump with today's guest, Joe Raki, who's been involved in catechetical ministry for four decades. He currently is National Consultant for Faith Formation at Loyola Press in Chicago. Joe is the author of more than 20 books, including the bestsellers, the Catechist Toolbox, and a Well-Built Faith, as well as a church on the move under the influence of Jesus and living the sacraments.

He also has worked on several Caate series. He including Finding God and Called to Be Catholic, the latter of which is a bilingual program that helps young people to know their faith and grow in their relationship with God. Okay. Joe is also very popular on the speaking circuit and has presented keynotes and workshops in more than 150 dioceses in North America.

The last time we ran into each other, it was at the LA Religious Ed Congress, and I know he's been a regular speaker there. He also has a blog called The Catechist Journey, where he shared the journey of teaching the Catholic faith for 15 years, and that's still available online, although you're not adding to it anymore.

So I frequently turned to Joe as a source for stories I'm working on. So when I read he was going to be retiring soon, I wanted to get him one last time to share his wisdom about faith formation with all of our listeners. So welcome to the podcast, Joe, and happy early retirement. I know you're not retiring yet, but happy retirement to come.

PAPROCKI: Hi, Heidi. Thanks so much and I appreciate the invitation. It's great to be with you for this and I've been following you for many years as well and looking to you for your reports your investigations and so on, and keeping us apprised of what's going on in our church.

SCHLUMPF: Well, and I'll just mention to our listeners that you and I have run in the same circles for a long time. We're both Chicagoans and some of our listeners may recognize your last name and know that there's a bishop of the same name. Tell us, is there a connection there? I.

PAPROCKI: Yes. Tom is my brother. I have six brothers and two sisters. So come from a large family and I always remember my mom. God rest her soul. People would say, you must be so proud having a son who's a bishop. She would always say, I'm proud of all of my children.

SCHLUMPF: Oh,

PAPROCKI: That was always a nice thing she said.

SCHLUMPF: she's a good mom. And I always love hearing stories about your family too. So I know because you've been working in this field for so long that you have a long-term perspective. So what are your thoughts as your. You know, coming to the end of your formal career anyway about the state of religious education today.

I know some people talk about, or there've been some studies that say, oh, you know, Catholics after Vatican ii, they just are so poorly catechized. Is this true? What is the state today?

PAPROCKI: Yeah, lemme start with that. There, there really haven't been so many, so much studies as much as opinions about that, and a lot of it is anecdotal you know. I grew up in that that time period I believe you did as, as well. And you know, it was the world was a tumultuous place, not that it isn't now.

And so much was changing in society, not just in the Catholic church, but in education and in every other institution. And so, you know. Could catechesis have been better at the time? I'm sure it could have been, but the people like you and I encountered Jesus through the faith formation that we had.

And I think it's a myth that somehow before the second vat can counsel. That faith formation was, you know, extremely effective. What was effective was families and communities who formed children in faith and all the children had to do was learn a little Baltimore catechism. Still have a copy of that here and nothing against that, but that's all that was needed.

But, you know, all those institutions that supported. The faith in the family and the community, those have all eroded. And so it takes more than a simple book of questions and answers. Where does that leave us today? I think we're in a critical state. We have dioceses and parishes have fewer resources.

Than ever both money-wise and personnel wise to form people in faith. We also know that for the longest time, the church has not given enough attention to the formation of catechists and I've been shouting from the rooftops for four decades. About how that should be one of our priorities is forming catechists.

On the other hand, we have some wonderful and exciting initiatives happening. In particular, the attention being given to family catechesis. Many of the people that I work with believe that we can no longer continue to rely on a system of dropping off kids that we've trained parents to be chauffeurs.

We have to, we don't, we have to talk about not catechizing children, but catechizing and evangelizing families. And that's happening. I was proud to help develop a family catechesis program for Loyola Press, and I get to, to work in it at my parish, St. Barnabas. And it is wonderful working with the parents and helping them to learn more about their faith and to see light bulbs go on.

Something touched them in their faith formation that they're bringing their children, but they often don't have the words to articulate it, and that's what Catechesis does, provides us the words to articulate the encounter with God.

SCHLUMPF: Well, you talk about how so much in the world was changing. You know, when you and I were growing up and I'm a seventies catechized person with felt banners and everything and proud of it. 'cause I learned, I got the gist of it even if I did. Didn't have the memorization that some other people had, but some of the new challenges facing catechists and parents and teachers today are new.

You know, we've had the pandemic and now we have social media, which was not around when we were growing up. Does that pose a particular challenge to religious formation of young people or from fa of families, as you say?

PAPROCKI: It poses the challenge and provides us with an opportunity as well. And so the challenge is back in the day families were able to control. The information coming into the home. You maybe had one or two TVs, a radio and whatever newspaper dad decided to subscribe to. And so. You know, you could completely control it and you could bring in Catholic periodicals in the home as well.

Well, we've lost that control. Now not only the pro proliferation of TVs and radios, obviously, but social media, you know, so all of us, including our children, walk around with, you know, the. World at our fingertips and we can't, parents can't control what their children are being exposed to. We do our best as parents and as grandparents to do that.

So that's a challenge. On the other hand, it's a wonderful opportunity for us to catechize people. Through social media to evangelize as well and the people that we are catechizing to encourage them to use social media to not to go on there and say, are you saved? You know, and to beat people over the head, but just to.

Check in. I'm at Mass at St. Barnabas Parish on this lovely Sunday. Let people know that faith is a part of your life. Or, you know, I'll put a little comment. Just went to a wonderful parents meeting at my parish to learn about, you know, the Eucharist for my child. You know, those are ways we can use social media.

To evangelize and let people know that faith is a priority in our lives. So it's a real challenge that we're facing, but also some wonderful opportunities and we have to navigate that just the right way.

SCHLUMPF: Yeah, I mean, I'm on social media a lot for my work obviously, and some areas of what, you know, we call the Catholic internet, I guess, cannot be life giving. So I think it would be a great counterbalance to have everyday Catholics sharing their own experiences of faith as well.

PAPROCKI: Absolutely. I find much inspiration online friends sharing prayers friends sharing, inspiration sharing a clip of a talk that they went to and so on, and it's like, Ooh, I want to get, I wanna learn more about that speaker. I wanna learn more about where's this prayer from? I wanna share this with others.

And so the opportunities are great.

SCHLUMPF: So I know we've talked before, I think I've heard you share this in some of your speaking as well about how catechesis or evangelism. Needs to be about a relationship with God, with Jesus not just learning facts about our faith. Can you say a little bit more about that?

PAPROCKI: Yeah. And you know, I like to bring things to our human level and say, you know, we don't fall in love with someone by providing them with a book of facts about ourselves or a sheet of information. At least that's not how I fell in love with my spouse. We do learn about them, but we encounter them.

We build a relationship and the more that relationship deepens, the more we want to know about them. And so that, that information and about the person we love is important, but it comes through and follows. An encounter, and so in catechesis, and I've been telling catechists this for years, ultimately catechists are not teachers of a subject.

We are facilitators of an encounter. And so do we pass along information? Yes. It's our God revealed himself in very concrete ways, certain words that God revealed to us, and specific actions that, that God revealed his love for us, and we need to pass those on. However, it also is important that through prayer.

We developed a relationship with this loving God and catechists need to learn and often be taught about how we do that. And the beauty of it is we have all those tools at our fingertips is Catholics. Because we are a sacramental church, we know that we encounter the invisible God through visible.

Realities. And so I call that a language of mystery, and so I've been working to help catechists know how to use sign and symbol ritual movement, space music, and silence in their catechesis so that it doesn't feel like. School. I always say that faith formation should feel more like mass than class. And you know, certainly there's content being transmitted, but it should be taking place within a climate of prayer that feels like I, I feel like I'm in church right now.

I feel God's presence here and within that presence. We learn about God. And so, that's what this is all about. When we talk about a relationship with God, it has to be something of a personal encounter and recognizing that God is present in mysterious ways. So we, most of us don't hear voices.

I remember in high school being taught to listen for God's voice and I told the Jesuit priest, it's not working, not hearing anything. He said, ah, you need to learn to listen with your heart. We need to teach people how to listen with their heart.

SCHLUMPF: Yeah, I mean this is something I've tried to do with my own kids as part of sharing my faith with them is. It's sort of just modeling, like this is where I see God in my life and for so many young people, I think they experience God in nature and the beauty of nature and encouraging that, rather than seeing that as like competing with churchy stuff, you know?

PAPROCKI: Exactly Saint Ignatius said we should be able to find God in all things. And, you know, if we can help our children our families, our friends, to find God in their work, in their home life and in nature and in encounters with other people, were proclaiming the gospel.

SCHLUMPF: Well now you mentioned you do a lot of work with catechists who often are volunteers who are doing this work, and I know that. They themselves then are often encouraged in their own encounter with God. I think sometimes we think of religious ed as something for children that they do in preparation for sacraments and that is important.

But it also should be a lifelong thing. So too often Catholics kind of end, end what they've learned about the faith. Whatever year they get confirmed these days. Eighth grade, I guess. So what do you think the church can do to encourage more of a life lifelong approach to catechesis?

PAPROCKI: I absolutely, absolutely agree that faith formation is a lifelong endeavor. And I think that's why I like working with catechists so much because so many of them get that. One of the things I do at almost all my presentations around the country is I begin by asking, so how long have you been a catechist?

Any newbies here and you know, small number of hands go up. And then I go on, you know how many of about five years, 10 years, 20. And it's amazing. The hands that are, that stay in the air 25, 30, 35, 40 years is catechists. And I tell the new catechists, look around. The people have been catechists for over a quarter of a century, some, almost a half a century.

And they're here today, usually on a Saturday morning. During the summertime or the fall or whenever, when they could be out doing a million things and they're here to learn and they're happy about it and they're not forced to be there, they're happy to. Last presentation I was able to speak in Chicago a couple weeks ago at the faith formation conference for catechists and two catechists from the parish that I was a DRE and over 35 years ago were there and came up to see me and we talked and I said.

You're still like, yep, 40 years that needs to spread to. Everyone we need to get that excitement out to everyone that this is a wonderful thing to keep on learning. We never stop learning and deepening our faith. I remember when I got my doctor of ministry and I was in the, at the graduation, I was the last person in line 'cause they do things hierarchically of course.

And they said and now for the terminal degree, the doctor of ministry. And I thought, terminal, you know, I'm done. I'm done learning, you know, so we use language like that and we also just have a culture that says, okay, I got my confirmation, I'm done. And we need to change that culture and let the, anytime we're together with adults, the.

The parish, there should be an opportunity for faith formation and we have parents for an orientation meeting for a school, Catholic school. There should be some faith formation happening there as well. And to help people realize the excitement of finding God all through life. Just a couple months ago, I did a three day retreat at a retirement home.

I'd never done that in my life before, but I spent three days with. People who are dealing with chronic pain and illness and loss and grief and just the challenges and the joys of old age, helping them to recognize how to find God. And that's catechesis that's learning what, where is God in the midst of all this.

And so it really is lifelong right up until the point that we transition into our next life.

SCHLUMPF: You mentioned Dres, and I'm thinking about all the changes that are happening in parishes in so many dioceses where there's being mergers or other tightening of things because of lack of person. Now and lack of resources. What are the challenges for DRE today? I know, I think even in my own parish, we no longer have a separate director of religious education.

That person is also our pastoral associate in handling a lot of other things in the parish. What does that mean? What might religious education look like in the parishes of the future?

PAPROCKI: Well, I think that Cico leaders, dres are being asked. To do more and more with less and less resources in many ways, the expectations are unrealistic as they are for pastors, as well. And and so I feel for catechetical leaders and at fan, I also feel for the people who have been put in those positions who have.

Been given the training or the formation. We have a lot of people who are volunteers or getting paid part-time. They work, they're catechists and they're being thrust into a position of leadership, and this is not a criticism of them. God bless them for stepping up and filling in this void and let's do everything we can to help them get.

The training and formation they need to lead in these programs. What it means is that we really need our catechetical leaders to, to recognize that they have to enable and empower lots of other people. The cico leader is the one who is the animator of a cico culture, not the one who does all the faith formation.

And so I, when I was in the parish some 25 years ago, th over 30 years ago now, I was known for on Sundays and weekends of. Walking around the church with a clipboard and they always said oh, Joe's got the clipboard. That meant that I was looking for people, you know, and I would talk to people, I'd meet people and I'd write their names down, and then I'd give 'em a call about joining the team for the catechumenate or becoming a catechist and just always looking for more and more people to grow in their faith by.

Teaching the faith, and so I like to, I think it's important to phrase it that way. When we're inviting people to become catechists and from children to adults, we're inviting them to grow in their faith, not just to volunteer to fill a spot.

SCHLUMPF: Well, is there anything else about the topic of religious education that we haven't talked about that you'd like to add? Joe?

PAPROCKI: Well, I'm going to to be selfish here and point out my my new book the Catechist Toolbox 2.0. The original book. caTECH Toolbox came out in 2007. It's 18 years ago. That was also the year that the smartphone came out. And we know the world has changed because of the smartphone.

Challenges. Opportunities. So it was time to rewrite the book and to talk about faith formation in the 21st century. The challenges we faced, the changes we need to make not in. Our doctrine. We don't change our doctrine, we don't change, you know, the teachings of Jesus, but we, especially in our delivery method.

And so the book goes into all those details about what does it mean to be a 21st century catechist, while at the same time I begin the book by posing the question, can robots replace catechists? And when I asked that question, I. The looks on catechist faces is priceless. I see them shaking their heads going no, and it makes for a great conversation.

I think robots might be catechist aids at some point. Wouldn't it be fun to have Ro Robbie robot come in and lead a little review game for the kids? But ultimately, a catechist is someone who looks into the eyes and the heart of those, in front of them and helps them to encounter Jesus. And tell their own stories and elicit stories, and that's something a robot can't do.

So we need a balance. We need to use technology in our faith formation, but we can never replace the person of the catechist and the heart of a catechist.

SCHLUMPF: Well, thank you so much. I'm so grateful the, for the way that you certainly hold up our tradition, but also are always thinking about new ways to deal with the culture. I bet a bunch of our listeners out there are probably volunteer or paid. Catechists. So if you are, we'd love to hear from you. But for now, let's thanks Joe P for being on the show with us today.

Thanks again, Joe. It's been so good to talk to you. Thanks again for listening. This has been The Francis Effect.