The Pope's health, potential cuts to Medicaid, and an interview with Shannon Evans on Lent

Daniel, Heidi, and David look at the GOP's recent attacks on Medicaid, and join their prayers with the world on behalf of the health of Pope Francis. Heidi interviews NCR's Shannon Evans about lenten spirituality

INTRO

The Four Theologians, a conversation that aired last week

Heidi’s lent practice - birdwatching

St. Bonaventure

Segment 1 - Pope’s Health

Pope’s admission to the hospital

Daniel’s article at America Magazine about Francis’s namesake

“A poor Church for the poor”

Francis of Assisi - commitment to ministry, mercy, and care

Rosary prayers for Pope Francis

Segment 2 - Potential Cuts to Medicaid

Virtuous Violence

Thomas Merton - “No such thing as an innocent bystander”

Segment 3 - Heidi interviews Shannon Evans

TRANSCRIPT

INTRO

DAULT: Hello and welcome to the Francis Effect Podcast. My name is David Dult. I host a radio show called Things Not Seen about Culture and Faith, and I'm an assistant professor of Christian Spirituality at the Institute of Pastoral Studies at Loyola University Chicago. I'm here with my friends Heidi Schlump and Dan Horan.

Heidi is senior correspondent and National Catholic Reporter, a publication that connects Catholics to church faith and the common good with independent news analysis and spiritual reflection. Dan is professor of philosophy, religious studies and theology, and Director of the Center for the Study of Spirituality at St.

Mary's College in Notre Dame, Indiana. He's also affiliated Professor of Spirituality at the Oblate School of Theology in San Antonio, Texas. Every couple of weeks we get together to discuss news and events through a lens of our shared Catholic faith. Dan and Heidi, welcome to you both. Heidi. How have you been?

I.

SCHLUMPF: Well, it's a busy time in the Catholic journalism field these days. Obviously, we're all careful. Watching the Pope's Health, and we'll be talking about that later. And as some of our listeners may know, we did a special episode last week where I interviewed four theologians, two folks from Loyola Chicago, two folks from Fordham University to get them to reflect and to challenge us a bit on Where the country is after a month into the Trump administration. And so I really wanna thank Brian Massengale, hilly Hager, Miguel Diaz, and Christine Christina Trina for their bravery and courage, but also their insights. So if you haven't had a chance to check that out yet, you can go see that on our website.

Also, I did an interview this week with, my colleague Shannon Evans about Lent, and I don't know if you guys are gonna share what you're doing for Lent, but I thought I'd, I know I'm starting to think ahead about that. And I have this super creative thing I'm doing for Lent this year, guys.

I found it on Instagram. It's a Protestant minister. She's a Presbyterian minister who has like a whole ministry around birdwatching and for Lent. She says You're supposed to go outside and sit for 10 minutes. And bird watch every day. So it's a way of like focusing your attention, quieting yourself down, being still listening for God's voice.

So I'm gonna give that a try. I think I'm gonna write about it for NCR, so I'll have to update you on how that's going anyway, I know we're all thinking more spring break than Lent maybe these days. How are you doing, Dan?

HORAN: Yeah, it's hard to believe. Lent seems to sneak up. And yeah, I am thinking about midterm. We are here at St. Mary's and Notre Dame and Holy Cross the tri-campus in South Bend. We're about two weeks out from our midterm break, but that means that, you know, once we hit that, students and faculty around the country will appreciate that the spring semester tends to fly by from that point onward because we have Easter break and then the weather is getting warmer, God willing and things just kind of pick up.

So it's hard to believe that we're almost at the halfway point. But that's exciting too. actually last weekend I was in New York State. At St. Bonaventure University in western New York. My undergraduate alma mater, where I happened to serve on the board of trustees actually finishing up my third term on the board.

So this is my last year. So every meeting is kind of marking a a bittersweet departure that I'm gonna miss my colleagues and an excuse to, to come to campus multiple times a year. I was talking with another colleague of mine who's retiring from the board in May, like I am, and we both keep saying, and we're both officers of the board too.

So we're in meetings all the time and we're thinking like, what are we gonna do with all this extra time? I said, well, I've got some research projects that are waiting for that space. But it just so happens that our February, or it's quote unquote spring board meeting is usually scheduled to coincide with.

The basketball homecoming weekend. So a lot of alums are in town in addition to the board that meets for several days and there's usually a big basketball game. So it was really great to see. A number of fellow alums, friends of mine and classmates, but also folks who came up to me at a couple different receptions talking about how much they love the podcast.

And so shout out to those Bonnies who are Francis Effect listeners. I also got a very nice phone call in my office the other week from a, st. Mary's College alumna named Jean from the class of 1986, who just wanted to give us a shout out and to express how grateful she is for the podcast.

So that's props to you Heidi and David as well. And thank you to all of our listeners. So, I, for 1:00 AM really tired of winter. We have a little bit of a tease here in the Midwest, Chicago South Bend, where it's a, the sun seems to be out for a moment, and the weather. Is topping freezing and snow is starting to melt.

I hope that continues. That's where I am these days. David, where are you?

DAULT: So I just got back from being down in Missouri where I was the guest at the Midwest American Academy of Religion Regional Conference, and I was invited there to give a keynote talk and I had a lovely time. I had not been to that regional conference before, but I will definitely go back. It was sort of in Springfield, Missouri, and there was negative 16 degrees and a lot of snow on the ground.

And I was. Doing a lot of trekking back and forth from the hotel to the conference site in my big winter coat. And so I'm glad to be back in a place where it's still not warm here in Chicago, but it's not that cold as it was over the weekend. And then this coming weekend as we get ready for our spring break at.

Loyola, I'll be traveling down to Florida for another double conference. Actually, the Association of Graduate Programs and Ministry and the little section of the Association of Jesuit Colleges and universities that I'm the president of currently. We'll all be meeting down there at a retreat center in Florida.

And then I come back on Monday and immediately turn around and go to a three day writing retreat, which is organized by my wonderful colleagues at IPS. And so I'm grateful for all of these chances to move around and be a normal human being, but I'm also very tired. And so, as you're talking about Lent Heidi, lent is a wonderful time to slough off things and to and to be thoughtful about the ways that we're spending our time. And I'm just in one of those crash seasons where I just have to get through to the end and things are not gonna stop for me in terms of travel and hecticness until August, unfortunately.

So it's just gonna be a very busy season for me. But a lot of. A lot of good things are happening. Projects are getting done, books are coming out. Stuff is getting written and I'm still teaching my classes and I get to do stuff like this, which is wonderful as well. So I'm happy for all of that, but it's gonna be weird to be in a place where it will be 70 degrees to step off of a plane and be in, in Florida for that.

So, speaking of things that are coming up, listeners, let's go ahead and talk about what's gonna be happening on the show here today. in our first segment, we're gonna be looking at the Pope's health and the downturn that it has taken recently.

I know that I have been praying fervently about that. I'm sure that you have as well. In our second segment, we're gonna be looking. At a different healthcare related issue, the potential cuts to Medicaid that are being threatened right now with the current budget and with the priorities of the GOP.

And then in our third segment today, Heidi interviews Shannon Evans on Lent and Lenon practices. So all of that is coming up here on the Francis Effect. Please stay with us.

SEGMENT 1

DAULT: Welcome back to The Francis Effect. I'm David Dalt and I'm here with Dan Horan and Heidi Schlump. Every couple of weeks we get together to discuss a variety of topics from a perspective informed by our Catholic faith. I. On Friday, February 14th, Pope Francis was admitted to the hospital for bronchitis, an illness that causes inflammation in the lungs.

Subsequently, Francis developed pneumonia in both lungs and has remained in the hospital under the supervision of physicians. The Pope, who had a major portion of one of his lungs removed due to illness when he was a young man, may be even more susceptible to health complications than the average 88-year-old.

Over the weekend the Vatican reported that the Pope was having initial mild kidney failure, but it stated that it was under control at the time of this recording. He is not on any technologies to assist with his breathing apart from receiving supplementary oxygen. His medical team reports that he received blood transfusions on Saturday.

Pope Francis' Health decline has galvanized most of the faithful in prayer. During this jubilee year, many pilgrims in Rome have been leaving candles and dedicating prayers for the Pope. On Monday, several Cardinals led a prayer service and recitation of the rosary for Pope Francis. Meanwhile, Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York publicly claimed that Pope Francis was probably close to death during mass on Sunday.

He provided no particular sources for this speculation. While it is still premature and perhaps inappropriate at this time to engage in speculation about whether this is a fatal medical decline or when the Pope might pass away, the severity of his condition has understandably led to many people thinking about this eventuality.

For others, this has been a time of reflection and looking back over the previous 12 years of Francis' Pontificate. Dan, how are you thinking about things at this moment?

HORAN: Well, first let me say I, I think I speak for the three of us and saying that we are joining the rest of the church and people of goodwill around the world and keeping Pope Francis in prayer. Hopefully, you know, he's comfortable and that he's, you know, improving and certainly that would be ideal.

And at the same time, like you said, David, I think there's understandable. maybe not full blown speculation, but an appreciation for the fact that he's in his late eighties, has had a number of health conditions and that this is very serious for anybody of his kind of demographic. One thing that has come to mind of late is something I remember thinking about in 2013 and actually wrote quite a bit about when I was a columnist at American Magazine at the time, which is, the namesake of Pope Francis. You know, it was historic in that he was the first bishop of Rome in 800 years to take the name Francis. At the time I, I commented that's partly because Francis of Assisi left such big sandals to fill. We might say that, you know, he is still by far the most popular Saint Christian history.

Somebody who was both prophetic and insightful, loyal to the church, but also prioritized relationship, including with those at the margins of the church and of his medieval society sometimes to the dismay of his fellow religious and for church leaders. And so. Right off the bat, we saw how Pope Francis really kind of stepped into that identity talking in his first week of Pontifical ministry about how, you know, he wanted a poor church for the poor, not to forget the poor his care for creation deeply Franciscan.

And so in many ways, the start of his Pontifical ministry was. Reflective of the commitments and the model of St. Francis of Assisi, without a doubt. And I've been thinking, you know, I hope this isn't the end of his papal ministry, but it might very well be. And in any event, it's an occasion to reflect on, as you said, David, the last 12 years.

And if this were to be the case I think it's actually wrapping up in a way, not unlike that, of St. Francis of Assisi so far. And what I mean is, on one hand, a very practical thing. Scholars and historians have pointed out that Francis of Assisi, who died at the very young age of 44 years old did so by not attending to those his own physical health, including not attending to those otherwise.

Probably survivable illnesses that were exacerbated in no small part because his, because of his unrelenting commitment to ministry and outreach to mercy and care. And there've been a number of people, observers who have said, you know, this is actually Pope Francis over these last dozen years has really not slowed down.

In fact, he had his longest overseas visit in, in Asia just a couple months ago. And so, I, I think. There's a lesson here, right? I think Pope Francis in a number of his comments back in the mid 2010, so twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, I recall him talking about how clergy in particular needed to make themselves available to the people of God.

And this elicited questions in seminaries about pastoral care. How do you care for yourself in order to care for others? And Pope Francis seemed to be saying like. All the time, 24 7, 365 and has modeled that. So I've been thinking about that. I'm like, there's something both laudable about that. And then there's also a point of caution we might ask like, could Pope Francis have been taking better care of himself at various points?

Not to blame the illness on him. 'cause that's, you know, it's not his fault he has pneumonia but I think this is an opportunity for all of us to reflect on our own ministries, our own work, our own kind of moving through the world. So that's an initial thought, but. You know, what do you two think? I mean, this is obviously a very serious moment.

SCHLUMPF: Thanks Dan. I love that comparison to St. Francis, you know, for. Those of us in the journalism business, you know, we have to be in some ways, sort of on this death watch that many people find, disturbing or I poor taste. But it's our job to bring the news if and when there is the end of one papacy and a transition into another one.

So, I'm no longer editor at. NCR. So that's, it's not top of mind for me, but the editors there and especially our Vatican correspondent Christopher White, have been really busy around the clock, making sure that we're positioned to. Bring the news that's coming, you know, right now, but also have the news in the future if we need to about, about what's happening.

So, so it might be distasteful to some that we write obituaries in advance or you know, have to commission reaction pieces in advance. But that's a lot of what's going on behind the scenes at many news organizations. Yesterday I did join the Rosary Prayer at I think it was nine o'clock in. St.

Peters Square, but two o'clock here in Chicago and it looked like it was a very cold and rainy evening there. But hundreds of people came out to, to pray the rosary for Pope Francis' Health. And I prayed mine along at home. And it was, I watched it on a feed from EWTN and I had been struck earlier in the day that, you know, a number of organizations that are pretty conservative and some might even tag as kind of anti Francis, quote unquote.

Were offering their prayers for the Pope, at least in email blasts. I think I got one from Catholic vote. And one from the NAPA Institute that they were praying for our Holy Father. And so as I was praying the rosary with the EWTN feed, you couldn't miss like the side of the page had all these people commenting.

And at first it was all these people saying, praying for you from, you know, Montana, praying to you for you from other parts of the world. And then the announcer from EWTN. And in addition to translating some of the the mysteries and that sort of thing, and who was praying at the end started giving updates about the Pope's health, like over the prayers, like you're trying to say the Hail Mary.

And he's like, we've learned that the Pope has, you know, his renal failure is better or something. And people started getting really nasty in the comments. about this announcer speaking over, and then I noticed too, and distracted by that, I started noticing that there were people in the comments who were happy to see the Pope ushered out of this life.

And there has been some of that on social media too, which is disheartening. But I'm hoping and praying that. You know, the end of someone's earthly life, especially if you've disagreed with Francis or thought he was the greatest Pope ever is a serious time that I hope could bring most people of faith together to at least pray that he has a you know, safe transition if that's what we are facing.

So those are the observations I've seen, and I'm gonna try to join those rosaries every day as I can, as my workday allows at 2:00 PM central time. Anyway. How about you, David? What are you thinking?

DAULT: Well, I've been reflecting on the fact that, listeners may recall that I'm not a cradle Catholic. I'm a convert. And one of the things that was really. Sort of pivotal in my movement towards the Catholic church was the way that Pope John Paul II chose to live his final days. And the, and I remember when he was basically on his deathbed and there was sort of a death watch for that.

I remember I was home at my parents' house. And I remember falling asleep with the television on in my room and sort of waking up with the news reports. And I was I was very invested prayerfully in that moment, and I was very moved by the ways in which the entire world sort of came together.

And I'm, I'm having similar and dissimilar feelings right now. I'm in a different place with the church than I was then. I was an outsider sort of looking in the stained glass window and wondering at it all. And now I've had close to two decades in the church. And I've really been invested as an insider.

I oftentimes refer to myself as a professional Catholic. And so I am thinking about And wondering about how some of the pieces that Francis has put in place, which in many ways are quite revolutionary, how they will continue to survive either his convalescence or his passing. I'm thinking particularly about.

Ality, and I'm thinking about the focus on ecology and a kind of different approach to technology that arises out of La Dato Sea. I'm thinking about Protagonism, I'm thinking about a church for Totos, Totos, Totos. Everyone, everyone, Everyone. That is not the way that the church has articulated itself even during my brief time with it, and so I, I have been very refreshed by the papacy.

Francis and I am very eager to see it continue as long as is possible. And I'm both eager but also terrified to see what might follow it. And so I've got a lot of mixed emotions right now, and as I've been talking about this with my family, one of the things that I've been saying is.

I'm kind of hesitant to imagine what might come next because we've seen so many things go so disastrously wrong in the last few years. And I would hate to think that one of the beacons for me, the church one of the places where I have felt the most hope and the most connection.

I'm hesitant to put that. Into the fray at this particular moment. And so, you know, I'm I'm hesitant to pontificate and I'm hesitant to prognosticate at this particular moment.

HORAN: Yeah, I think it's probably wise David and a good spiritual and practical practice there. I think, you know, I appreciate your reflections on the previous 12 years of pop. Francis' ministry, I think that is actually where we should be focused. And there are some outstanding questions. I mean, he famously as a number of other commentators have noted, has done very little in terms of sort of doctrinal change despite the right wings.

Kind of imagining that's the case. You know, there's been no change to, to the sacraments or to any of the kind of core doctrinal or even really disciplinary. Dimensions of church teaching. And by that I mean something that was, I was reminded of recently that was, you know, on the minds of a lot of bishops going into Vatican two in 1962, was whether or not the roughly thousand year history of mandatory clerical celibacy was gonna be maintained.

Was there gonna be a resource mom back to the first millennium and to what the eastern churches are doing. The questions about, you know, artificial birth control and the like, you know, these were the kinds of things that were on the minds of folks in the middle of the 20th century. And then you saw, you know, that was some kind of really substantive change changes.

What we've seen with Pope Francis are precedents that are really, practical. So the appointment of women particularly women religious to higher offices in the Vatican bureaucracy, I think that is precedential. I think that's important. But the que outstanding questions in Pope Francis' ministry around women being admitted to the diaconate or readmitted we should say or things of that nature feel to me a lot like John, the 20 third's legacy around issues like contraception, around some of these other practical, both moral issues, but also, disciplinary issues that, you know, then were inherited by Paul, the six, and we all know how that went, didn't go well. So I'm not sure what's what's ahead. Yeah. Heidi, do you have thoughts about that?

SCHLUMPF: Well, we don't wanna get ahead of ourselves, obviously. We're still praying that the Pope. Pulls through. We're recording this on Tuesday. We don't even know what the state of things might be when this drops by Thursday. But you know, I mentioned some of the negative social media things that I've seen and as part of my job I have to be on so Catholic social media and see these things.

But one of, one person was kind of saying. Good. You know, now maybe we can get a, we've got Trump and now maybe we can get like a Trump-like Pope too, and then we'll be set. And of course, that's just what many Americans maybe are fearful of if they're hanging on by a thread through the Trump administration, which we'll talk about next.

But people who are very grateful for the Pope's moral leadership in times like this are. Like you said, David, probably rightfully a little nervous about what might behold us. I like to trust the Holy Spirit, but sometimes the Holy Spirit goes in loops or something and takes his or her time.

I will say I'm also going through a transition at my parish. We're getting a new pastor this year and many people are. Also a little, an anxious about what that may hold for our parish in terms of who there is to draw from the Chicago Presbyterate. So, a lot of things kind of in question and then.

I guess I would just point out that we're speaking on a podcast that's called The Francis Effect. I think sometimes we forget, I, I wasn't here when you guys named it, but there was a lot of talk at the beginning of his pontificate about how his openness, his pastoral style was having an effect on.

Catholics and non-Catholics alike at least. You know, there were some people who were thinking like, oh, is church attendance gonna go up? Are the number of people entering seminary going to go up? You know, I don't know if those have proved to be true or not but there has been. Positive feelings of goodwill.

You know, in addition to the people who maybe don't have goodwill towards Pope Francis, there have been a lot of positive feelings towards him personally, towards the church, towards the papacy as he speaks out and has had a more pastoral open style. So maybe that will be his legacy. I would hope, and I don't know what it means for us in our podcast name, but but we'll we're part of that Francis Effect, I guess, right?

HORAN: Well, if memory serves me well 16 seasons ago, the original vision was a bit. Of a play on words. So it was adopting the Francis effect of Pope Francis, but even more so the Francis effect of his namesake. And so how does the vision of Francis, of Assisi, the Franciscan worldview, which was all David, I have to say even though I was a professed Franciscan at the time, still remain a Franciscan and heart and practice.

I think David definitely has a Franciscan heart, and Heidi, you're included as well. And so the Francis Effect will continue with or without, fra Francis, the Bishop of Rome. But we hope that Francis, the Bishop of Rome is with us and recovers and is healthy for as long as God you know, has in store for us.

So, again we'd be remiss if we didn't encourage everybody to join us and the rest of the world, the church and people of goodwill who are keeping the Holy Father in prayer as we keep you in prayer as well. This might be a good place for us to take a break as news continues to develop around the Holy Father's health.

We're going to switch gears and come back to talk about a different kind of administration, not one of the Holy Sea, maybe something of an unholy chaotic sea here at home. The Trump administration and some legislation on the decks. You're listening to the Francis Act.

SEGMENT 3 -

HORAN: Welcome back to The Francis Effect. I'm Dan Horan, and I'm here with Heidi Schlump and David Dahl. Every couple of weeks we get together to discuss news and events through a lens of our shared Catholic faith. Unfortunately, we have seen this film before Republicans are threatening to cut and gut programs that support the most vulnerable among us as a way of passing on tax breaks to the rich as reported by NPR on.

On February 13th, the House budget Committee, which is under Republican control, voted to seek at least 880 billion with a B dollars in mandatory spending cuts. These cuts target programs run by the House Energy and Commerce Committee. These programs include Medicaid, which is expected to bear much of the cuts.

These threatened cuts are part of a Republican effort to extend Donald Trump's 2017 tax cuts for the wealthy that was passed during his last administration. The GOP cuts would also serve as an attack on the Affordable Care Act, popularly known as Obamacare. Republicans have made numerous attempts to repeal or roll back aspects of the law over the past decade fortunately to little success.

With the a CA, Medicaid became a more central part of state budgets. If Republicans are successful in slashing Medicaid funding, states would struggle to afford coverage for low income people on the program without raising taxes, cutting benefits, or slashing spending on other programs such as education.

Not all Republicans are on board with the cuts. However, as many representatives fear the backlash that will occur if hospitals or other health programs are closed in their districts as a result of slashing Medicaid.

HORAN: David, there are so many moving parts here. How should we as citizens and in particular as Catholic citizens in this country be thinking about this recent GOP threat?

DAULT: One of the things I want to hone in on is the word you just used, which is recent GOP threat, and I want to. Stress that this is in some ways a recent threat, but also in many ways, this is something that has been going back for years and years. This has all been part of their plan. They do not want to have the possibility of safety nets.

They want to undo if you will the New Deal and everything that was a remnant of the New Deal. Anything that might mean that the common folk would have a. Dignified sunset to their lives. Either care for them in their old age or care for them when they become infirm.

All of that is being yanked away in order to give more and more money to. The rich. And you know, at Pope Francis, I'm mindful of a meme going around right now where Pope Francis is echoing the words of Jesus Christ, where he basically says, you cannot serve two masters. You can either be serving God or you can be serving money.

And right now the GOP is very much saying that they are in the serving money camp. And so whether you. Take this as an attack on the a CA, whether you take this as just a smash and grab to try and get any sort of large amount of money that has been set aside for any sort of humanitarian purpose. Sort of re repurposed into the hands of the wealthy, however you wanna look at it.

It's dastardly. To quote the Protestant radio commentator and theologian, Steve Brown. It's from the pit of hell. It smells like sulfur and we need to name it as such, but those are just my initial thoughts. I wonder what you two are thinking.

SCHLUMPF: Well, as someone who's currently teaching a class about Catholic social teaching I'm grateful to the news for giving me multiple examples of how often our government is. Does not reflect the teachings of our church. And this is a perfect example of where the option for the poor and marginalized could be applied, but unfortunately is not.

And as you pointed out, David, instead it's like we have an option for the super rich. Like we didn't give them enough tax cuts the last time around that we need to go give them further tax cuts. One thing that strikes me about this is that. You some people think of Medicaid as just being for poor people, but it's often for the elderly.

And so for people who are in nursing homes, and once you've spent all your savings as an elderly person, then you go on Medicaid, which pays for your end of life and nursing home care. And so a lot of folks in red states or in Republican and rural areas are. People who are recipients of these programs and who will feel this very acutely if these cuts happen.

And again, just a reminder, we're as we're recording this, the news continues, so we know that it's being voted on in the house today, and we don't know what the re the result will be by Thursday. So already Donald Trump's approval ratings are not that good. In fact, they're some of the lowest ever.

I think the only other, the lowest I think I heard the other day, the only lower approval ratings than his right now were Trump in his first term. Which of course was covid times. But, so I'd be curious this is something that people are going to feel, and I wonder if it'll have some reaction.

I don't know. It's, it certainly is, can't be justified as Christian or Catholic in any way. I.

HORAN: No, absolutely not. I mean, I feel like regular listeners to this podcast have heard years back, David and me, and now also with you, Heidi, you just did the kind of repeating on kind of. Like a broken record the fundamentals of Catholic teaching, Catholic moral teaching around social issues about the option for the poor and marginalized about subsidiarity about promotion and protection of the common good, which is the only purpose of government according to Catholic teaching.

It's not about you know, curing favor or about your individual kind of comfort, security, or wealth. It's amazing how many people think that's what it is. You know, that there's that old poll some years ago, maybe decades ago now, that had a result in which a number of self-professed Christians believe that Jesus said, quote, God helps those who help themselves unquote.

So, like, you know, there is this deeply. Individualistic and self-centered and selfish sort of ethos that informs, you know, not just the overt prosperity gospel sort of preachers of certain strands of evangelicalism, but you know, even in the Catholic church too, this, there's been this move, this kind of acquiescence to a GO pation of of the gospel.

that's the bad news. I think some of the good news is that. When the truth ha does kind of come to the fore of the thinking of people, including people in red states, as you said, Heidi, including districts, congressional districts that went overwhelmingly for Trump and reelected or elected GOP representatives.

There have been many reports in the last week about These house representatives and senators going back to their districts and getting pushback in deeply secure red states by citizens who are very unhappy with Elon Musk and his, you know, let's call them goons running amok in the federal government.

as other commentators have noted, it's hard for this kind of self-centered, self-interested American ethos for many people to wrap their heads around the importance both. Politically in terms of soft power, but also in terms of humanitarian outreach in the moral value of the U-S-A-I-D crisis.

That's that we're facing right now, but it is much easier for people. To wrap their heads around their private information, social security numbers, tax information going into the hands of a South African billionaire. And you know, I think, like you said, once people realize that Medicaid and perhaps by extension next on the chopping block you mentioned in the elderly, right?

And the, and those who are disabled depend very heavily on medic. Medicare as well. And so these things are they're moral issues. They're financial issues, they're stabilizing issues in our country, and so there has been pushback. I think there are, there is an opportunity to resist and to stand up.

And actually the Trump administration has a pretty strong record of backing down or reversing course when there's a lot of pushback. We see that happening. Slowly timidly, maybe at this point by GOP representatives and even the White House when it comes to Elon Musk, right? There's been some distance growing there as the New York Times reported.

The Washington Post actually just reported this morning. The headline, read some GOP lawmakers start to call out Doge carefully.

DAULT: So I, I'm thinking a lot of thoughts and I'm gonna go kind of theoretical for a moment. yesterday at the seminary co-op bookstore, I picked up a book from the psychology section called Virtuous Violence. And I haven't dug into it yet, but it is, It's by an author by the name of Fisk, and it's a study of the times when different communities believe that they are morally obligated to commit violence against others.

And so what we're seeing right now is kind of writ large. The Heritage Foundations moral document, the way that they're thinking about the budget and the arrangements of government from Project 2025. All reflect the notions that somehow it is virtuous to exclude people from the commonwealth.

It is virtuous to exclude people who are not able to pull their weight. And I'm putting that in scare quotes. It's virtuous in some way to starve or to condemn or to crush those who don't look like you. Alright. Again, I think that this is an abominable position nevertheless for the people in the GOP, it is their rational default position. And so what we are facing right now is not people who are twiddling their mustaches going, eh, this is so wonderful that I get to, that. I get to harm people that're saying, Ooh, God loves me. Because I am making sure that we are being thrifty.

God loves me because I am making sure that we're cutting through the waste. Unfortunately, part of what has been defined as waste are human beings, and that I think is the crux of this. And I don't want to offer this as an excuse for their position or their behavior, but I'm trying to understand their behavior so that I can begin to challenge it and critique it and bring arguments against it.

HORAN: I think that's so well said, David. And you know, your line of thinking synced with mine about this what Pope Francis would call throwaway culture, right? Where human beings are seen as refuse as expendable, or disposable. And so we see that with, well, you, if you are poor, if you are somehow maybe disabled, or if you are in a, you know, a class or a community or a context in which you are quote unquote othered then you don't count.

Right? You aren't valuable and you are thrown away. This is Deeply disturbing. I think one of the things I come back to is, you know, this acknowledgement that the three of us are very aware of in terms of, you know, the gospel imperative, the imperative of Catholic teaching.

This is not a up for question. There's no gray area here. About the need to protect and promote the common good and care for the most vulnerable in our societies including with Jesus' own parables as the model where, his heroes were upset when. You know, the famous line of Jesus in the voice, the narrator voice of one of his parables.

Are you jealous? Because I am generous. Like, are you envious? Because I am generous, which is, you know, yeah. That's, that is actually the way that a lot of people are operating, which is in stark contrast to the actual gospel to Jesus' message, to what it means to be Christian. But if we zoom back out for a minute, one of the things I keep getting hung up on is it's 2025.

We live in a deeply fractured and, very distracting communications environment where media is spread throughout. I mean, we can talk about silos. I think that's becoming less and less helpful. I mean, the silos were the cable news networks of the early, late nineties and early two thousands. What we have now is individually curated, algorithmically determined, artificially, intelligently, designed echo chambers of one.

And so how do you break through for folks to realize that there are some fundamental truths here that are at stake, including maybe one's own healthcare and one's own livelihood or ability to to, yeah to just survive, right. And so I don't know how we. Do that, how the message gets out. But I will say that Democrats have been really bad at this.

Trump has become really good at this, as we saw in the 2024 election. And I'm, I have no suggestions. Heidi, save us. What is, you're

SCHLUMPF: Oh, I'm

HORAN: What are the, what's the media answer?

SCHLUMPF: Well, I'm not gonna save you, but I do appreciate both of your attempts to try to get in the minds of people who are using Christianity to justify something so unchristian and even anti-Christian, anti-Christ, like, but you're right, the role of. Media and information, I think is a part of this and where people get their, the way things are spun.

But just to speak to the Democratic strategy a democratic capital D I read a piece this morning from James Carville about what the Democrats need to do now, and the answer is nothing is step back.

Let the Republicans implode. And so he was pointing out, I think specifically on these budget votes coming up because there are these Republicans who are starting to like question and say, wait, I'm getting a lot of hell about this when I go back to my district because you're cutting their services that they need badly.

And by the way, you ran on helping these people and you were supposed to be the working man's person. So he's saying just step back, let them implode when we run around and try to debate. Trump and when we try to, you know, protest our way against Trump, that hasn't worked in the past. And as a Christian, I just can't accept that strategy.

I mean, carville may be right that it's an, it might be more effective than the other way. He's not always right. I can just point out I

HORAN: He wasn't in 2024,

SCHLUMPF: I know he's a long time Democratic strategist that apparently the New York Times and others keep going to, but as a Christian, we cannot stand idly by and let our country do this to the poor and vulnerable.

So I've been grateful at Catholic organizations network, the Catholic lobby, the Catholic Health Association, speaking up against these cuts, and I would encourage Catholics to continue to do so. Do so.

DAULT: Well, James. Carville is correct in the way that a broken clock is correct. And my, my my disdain for James Carville runs very deep and is multi-year at this point. And I wanna push back just like you're pushing back, Heidi, about a couple things I'm thinking right now of the abolitionist geographer Ruth Wilson Gilmore, and her definition.

Of violence, I think is very useful here. Violence is not simply hitting somebody over the head with a club. Violence according to Gilmore is organized isolation. When you're using strategies and you're using you're using the vehicles of government to divide people and to make people feel as if they are alone and isolated.

That also is a form of violence. So already when we think about are you on Medicare or. You on Medicaid? Are you healthy or are you sick? We're already sort of thinking in visy terms and using definitions that can be weaponized against us because, well, if you start to define those that are disabled or sick as somehow a drag on the economy or waste, it becomes easier to do physical violence against them in, in, in addition to the kind of isolation area violence that we're already seeing.

So part of the Catholic response has to be communo. To say that even though you are different from me. I will appreciate and I will be sort of engaged with you in your difference. Without violence, I will not allow you to be isolated, even if I may be at this point, particular moment defined as healthy, and you may at this particular moment.

Be defined as sick. We have to instead find ways to build bridges and to say we all rise and fall together. It's not that some of us are the lucky elect. We're not Presbyterians here. No. No patch on my Presbyterian friends. But we're not Calvinists in that way. We are instead looking at the entirety of.

The population, the entirety of the public, and we're saying we have to be engaged together and breaking down, not building up these kind of divisions that are being foisted upon us.

HORAN: Well, just to go back to the rage in Cajun for a minute I don't have the same deeply ingrained disdain that David, you do. And I look forward to hearing maybe off air some of the stories that inform your very strong feelings about James Carville. I, but here's my, I agree with both of you.

I don't think his strategy is right for a couple reasons. One is. That I, I think the kind, well, to quote Thomas Merton, there's no such thing as an innocent bystander. So a choice to, to step back and let, quote, unquote, the GOP implode at what cost is the question that I follow up with, right? You need to at least make a good faith effort on behalf and advocating for something positive in a totally Republican controlled house, Senate, and White House, and maybe effectively Supreme Court.

You know, maybe it doesn't go anywhere practically, but it's a good faith effort that's symbolic. And so I think on those grounds, first of all, I disagree The second ground in which I disagree is that the Republicans, especially house Republicans are entirely feckless. They have no courage.

I. They have demonstrated time and again that they are incapable of doing the right thing. Weirdly enough, you know, one foot out the door, maybe one and a half or more feet out the door. Former Senate Majority leader Mitch McConnell is the only quote unquote resistor now in the Senate. It raises questions about his own sort of inability to stand up to Trump in the first term.

His. Basically creating the condition of the possibility for everything that happened in the first term, including judicial appointments. But that's another story that it's a sad day when Mitch McConnell is the kind of only one seeming to find moral fortitude here. I have a friend who's a former president of a very big Fortune 500 company.

And he said to me, and this has always stayed with me that the best advice that he got is he's, is, he was moving up the kind of corporate ladder, came from another CEO many years ago who said to him a good leader risks their job, not the institution. And I think that the moral. Depravity, the fecklessness of the Republican representatives is that they wanna hold on to their pitiful little power as two, two year at a time termed representatives over I.

You know, the institution of the United States or the Institution of Congress or the institution of the Senate or their own constituents, right? And so to me, there there's a, an absolute failure there. And why I don't actually think Carville's point will come to pass because you can't, I don't have faith that these folks will stand up even in a mitigated or kind of minimal way that like the Washington Post seems to be signaling at this point.

DAULT: So listeners as we're sort of continuing to talk this through, I'm mindful that we've been talking about Thomas Merton's quotation, that there are no innocent bystanders, and in the context of our earlier conversation about. Pope Francis, one of the things that Pope Francis has said throughout his papacy is that he wants everyone, and again, that's that todos todos todos thing.

He wants everyone to feel as if they are protagonists, as he said to the United Nations in 2015, dignified agents of your own destiny. And so we would like to invite you to step into the public sphere on behalf of the common good and to really make your voice heard. Especially now, whether it's downloading an app like five calls, that sort of directs you to how to get in touch with your representatives, or if you just take the initiative and put your representatives numbers into your speed dial, be calling them every day.

Make your voice heard, pick an issue or pick two issues and stick with that and call again and say, vote on behalf of the least of these among us, not those that are the richest and the most lucky in our society. Vote on behalf of the durable structures of government and the institutions that have kept us afloat for the last 250 years, not for their dismantling vote, for vote for the poor.

And vote for the least of these. And I we can keep saying it here on a podcast, but at the end of the day, a podcast doesn't do much, but your voice, you standing up, you finding others to stand up with that can begin to move the needle. And so we ask, certainly share this podcast. That would be wonderful.

We would love for other people to hear it, but more importantly, share your voice and share your passion. For the poor and the least of these among us. Do not be afraid at this moment to stand up because like Esther, perhaps we have been called as a people for such a moment as this. And with that, we're going to take a step back from this conversation and take a little bit of a break.

You're listening to The Francis Effect. We'll be back right after this with Heidi's interview with Shannon Evans about Lent. Please stay with us.

SEGMENT 4 -

SCHLUMPF: Welcome back to The Francis Effect. I'm Heidi Schlump with today's guest, Shannon Evans, who's not only my colleague at the National Catholic Reporter, but a bestselling author of books on spirituality, mysticism and motherhood at NCR. She's the spirituality and culture editor and responsible for the essays that look at movies, tv, music, art.

The spiritual life. We thought she'd be the perfect guest here at the Francis Effect as we approach lent this year. Shannon grew up Protestant and became an evangelical Christian in college. She converted to Catholicism by way of the Catholic worker movement. She began writing about spirituality and published her first book called Rewilding Motherhood in 2021.

That was followed by feminist prayers for my daughter, which is my go-to gift for all occasions that involve a young woman or even an older one. I. Her latest book, the Mystics would like A Word, looks at six spiritual women from our tradition and reinterprets their spirituality for today. Shannon also takes her spirituality into the social media sphere where she's known for sharing her backyard chickens and her love of Taylor Swift.

So welcome to the Francis Effect, Shannon.

EVANS: Thank you for having me. So glad.

SCHLUMPF: Well, we'll talk more about her later. We're actually recording this, you know, a good week, a week and a half before Lent actually begins. But I wanted to ask, are you somebody who normally like, gives something up or adds a spiritual practice for Lent, or do you know what your plans are for Lent this year?

EVANS: I.

Something up and add something or just add something. Usually if I give something up, I'm also still adding things because I find that just deprivation alone is not actually very spiritually nourishing, you know? And so there's a place for, you know, the intense stuff, I think. But for most of our lives, more valuable time spent. So for my New Year's resolutions I rejoined a yoga studio because I had been just practicing at home. But I wanted, I flake out too much. If I'm not committed, I.

For me, it has been such a way of, I mean, it's a spiritual practice, but I know some people just use it for exercise, but for me it's like, I really love that. The point of it is not to do certain poses perfectly or whatnot, but to really be present with everything.

I like to rush to make everything okay, to make people feel better to like alleviate conflict. And so for me, like it spiritual practice to like my body to just accept discomfort not pain, but just a little discomfort. And so.

Embodiment practice in my spiritual life has been really beneficial. So I'm, I've kind of recommitted and that will definitely continue and lent last lent I decided to, I live on a, with like a forest behind me, which, you know, but your listeners dunno. And so last lent I committed to taking a daily walk every lent to, to go for a walk in the woods.

And that was like probably one of my favorite practices that I've ever done for lint because I didn't succeed every single day. As is true for most of us with whatever we choose for lint. But it was such a it got me outta the house. Like you and I both work from home, you know, we're hunched over a computer.

It changed my perspective, get.

How grounding and centering it's to be in nature in an intentional way, especially to kind of, just listen for God in that space and just be present with the Holy Spirit, I think is really valuable in a way that goes against a lot of our thought about what.

Checking this off the list, you know, don't do this, don't do this, and you know, all of it. So sometimes just practicing a simple presence with God is like the most advantageous thing we can do for our spiritual lives. So, might do that again. I think I the contemplative. My in my city a one day retreat.

So.

SCHLUMPF: I did, the university I used to work at actually offered it was it once a week at lunchtime, and several of us got together and literally, I think we did it for maybe 15 minutes, 20 minutes. It was so hard.

EVANS: I know I've only tried it like twice and it's so hard. Do it a group, not by myself maybe. And you.

SCHLUMPF: Much, better in community. I would agree with that. Yes. Yes. So. Oh, go ahead. I was curious because two of the practices you mentioned, yoga and the walk are like, involve the body. And so, are you another practice that involves the body is fasting, that's kind of a traditional Lenin practice in our faith, and I'm wondering are you a faster, or do you do that for Lent.

EVANS: Yeah. Different years. I've done different things. I'm already a vegetarian, so the meat thing is not very applicable. But I've definitely fasted like sweets and alcohol. I'm actually kind of fasting alcohol right now, so I think that I'll probably make that an official thing during Lent. what I've noticed is different years in my life like that the deprivation element can feel helpful or.

Stressful space. Right now I have five kids and that's not, I had five kids last year too. You know, like that's not necessarily new, but just where my life is right now. I'm like, yeah, I probably won't deny too much because things already feel pretty maxed out. But there have been years that I've done like no sugar.

SCHLUMPF: No, you don't wanna know me with no coffee. That's. Not a good thing. Yeah, I have a mixed relationship with food in my life, so fasting has always, has often been a challenging thing in relation to food. But but I'm always curious what other people think about it, you know? A lot of Americans are feeling like it's a pretty challenging time in our country or to even to be a US Catholic.

And you already know that I wrote a piece in the aftermath of the election about many Catholic women who said they were struggling, saying they didn't feel like they fit in. A church that seemed to be so closely aligned with Trump, Trumpism. Do you have any spiritual practices that are helping you during this kind of chaotic, fearful time in our country?

Or any recommendations for our listeners about that?

EVANS: I'm right there. And that when you wrote that report, I was like, yep. That's me right there in there. I'm in like, little bitty central Iowa and just not a lot of parishes that are really practicing the kind of Catholic faith that I know and believe in. And you know, really taking a stand for justice and.

It's just so disheartening right now to be a woman in America in general, and then a Catholic woman at that. It's really difficult. I would go back to the embodiment practices because I think you know, the more I've learned about our bodies and particularly women's bodies, like we hold so many emotions.

Because you know, for X, Y, Z reasons, like it's not always safe to express ourselves the way that we would if could be totally free and honest. So there's lot anger inside. There's so much anger and often comes out as, or even judgment. Like I've had women come out, you know, against me in.

I know what the root of that is. Like, the root of that is you have so much anger and like you're just taking it out on me. So I think, you know, and there's all kinds of studies that have these striking correlations between, you know, women with autoimmune disease and you know, just the rates that women's bodies, withhold emotional expression. And so yeah, going back to just that embodiment the yoga, the the walking, just the intentionality. And I joke that I, you know, sitting still is hard for me and centering prayer, but like, I'm a very like, tactile person and so.

I think it probably does have to do with being a woman, even like evolutionarily, is that a word? Like care, like having to multitask, having to care for the elderly, caring for babies while you're cooking, while you're cleaning, whatever. Living in community. I think that like being active and like having a.

Rosaries because I like to hold them and I like to like the repetition. I have like an altar with just things that I like to touch while I pray on it, you know? But I do think that like coming back to our bodies is a really powerful thing. And I know that like, it can be hard to find, say, like a yoga studio that really emphasizes.

You know,

life.

SCHLUMPF: So thank you for that. I wonder too about the women from our tradition, and I'm thinking of your latest book, which features six mystics. So Theresa Avila, Marjorie Kemp. Hildegard of Bingham, Julian of Norwich, Catherine of Sienna, Theresa, theres of lasu. Do any of, or one or more of those women have something to say?

I don't know, either during Lent or during this time in our country or both?

EVANS: I think that they all do, you know, which is why writing the book was so fun because I just learned, I learned so much about their humanity and different than I had seen them portrayed by, you know, the church at large or even theologians or even biographers that, you know, that.

But the one that I think of a lot right now is Catherine of Sienna, and I wrote I wrote a chapter about balancing action and contemplation. And I chose her for that because I knew I wanted to write about that. And I was like, oh. She was like.

I read her life very closely, and what I found was that she really didn't do it very well and she didn't take care of herself and she really she really suffered and she almost certainly died well before she shoulda, her mother was still alive and buried her, and so she.

You know, the idea of self care for activists or for people who are awake and paying attention and, you know, giving a damn like self care isn't just, it's not irrelevant. You know, it's not kind of something that we say to like, give ourselves an out, like, it's so important and yeah.

Knowing that had she had more ebb and flow, had she had more space for the contemplative life beyond just go, go, go, go, go. Like what could she have done with those extra 20 years or 30 years? And so.

You know, I think right now, and we spoke briefly about this before we started reporting that like there's also this temptation to just, you know, curl in on yourself and just take care of yourself and kind of block out what's going on. And we can even call that prayer or contemplation or like religious devotion.

So.

Breaking.

SCHLUMPF: That's helpful. I'll have to go back to that chapter on Catherine of Sienna you know, last year around this. Time of year I interviewed sister Joyce Rupp a bestselling author about Lent and Lent in practices. And I know you're a big fan of hers as well. And shout out. We can link to that previous show in the show notes and point people to her work too.

But in addition to her are there other spiritual guides that you find helpful in your life that you would wanna share with our listeners?

EVANS: Yeah. Yes. No, she's wonderful. I, you know, I found so I love Mira by star. I acknowledge that at the beginning of the book about the mystics. I really love the way that she incorporates different religious traditions into, you know, a spiritual kind of tapestry that she offers. I think this lent, I might revisit Theresa of s Interior Castle because I think that was probably one of the most formative spiritual books that I've read. It's so wisely balances like formal prayer with just living life.

You know, mysticism. And so I love that. Right now I'm reading Bell Hooks. I'm reading all about Love. And that's my first time reading that actually, that's really relevant. I think a lot of the things that I gravitate to are not like in. I think my curiosity becomes more peaked and I'm more interested in how to integrate it in myself when it's like, when it comes from the side a little bit, you know, it's not like necessarily didactic or like hitting me straight. Christine's painter is another one. Vaulter's painter. Sorry.

I always get those. Yeah, I think she. Prove, that was that beautiful revisit.

SCHLUMPF: At least. I'm wondering too if there are people that you might recommend on social media. So I know you, you have quite a following on Instagram. I don't know. Maybe also on TikTok. I'm not on TikTok. Okay. Well, and I know you took a break from Instagram as well. Maybe if you wanna talk about that. You can.

There's a fast that a lot of people are doing as a Lenin practice these days. But I also know that you've connected with and found some really great spiritual I dunno if you'd call 'em guides or writers or people who share on social media. Would you wanna talk a little bit about that?

EVANS: Yeah, definitely. Let's see well, my best friends. This messy grace. And she is a is a theologian and a writer and a mother of five who has had a lot of grief in her life. She's lost children, lost a brother. She's my age, so she's rather young. I mean, she's just always been incredible. But yeah, just suffering will do this to us. Right. Her message one another. She has such a beautiful heart for justice in the Catholic church and like she just wrote an amazing stu about just like the history of Catholic resistance and leaders that we can be looking to in this moment as examples and and praying to for help and guidance and, yeah. She's Catholic, but there's a woman named Meredith Miller who gives great Christian based parenting tips. And it's just, it's such a it's such a healthy, wise, grounded voice to kind of be speaking into this.

SCHLUMPF: Also, and I've been so grateful to, from being connected to you, that I've also learned about some of these folks and they're so inspirational to me. Also the woman from Black Liturgies, what's her name? Do you know her? great. Yeah. Very inspiring. Hey, and speaking of Substack, you also have a substack and what's it called? The Rewild life. We'll include a link to that in the show notes as well. My last question, if you're willing to answer it, is about Taylor Swift. So I know you're a swifty. And I. Just saw that you are planning a Taylor Swift themed retreat, so I was so struck by this. This is so creative.

Tell me if you can, why you see this musician as someone that you've incorporated into your spiritual life.

EVANS: Yeah. Well it kind goes back to what I said a minute. Like I, the roundabout ways of getting I my spirituality toy and I.

Women in this country love Taylor Swift so much is because we have seen her publicly go through a process that we ourselves have gone through, which is sort of being raised in like kind of this, I mean I can't speak to her family, but like you can see as when she came into the public eye, it was very, de it was very like wanting to please everybody. It was kind of wanting to be the person that everybody wanted you to be and to, you know, fall in line and not disappoint and yada yada. And we kind of have seen her have this trajectory of of just maturing and coming into her whole self, whether that's.

A business woman and as a marketer kind of finding her voice. So like in, she's always written her own songs, which is, for me as a writer, that's like, if you can write a good song, then you have my respect. And so I love that about her. But just a lot of the things that she expresses throughout her songwriting, I.

Life as a woman kind of coming into what does it mean to have your own voice and your own agency and so yeah, I think I love her because I see a little bit of myself in her and it feels validating to have that reflect back beautifully.

SCHLUMPF: I don't know if you still have spots open on that retreat. You

EVANS: We do. Yeah.

SCHLUMPF: couple spots

EVANS: gonna be, that's gonna be sort of just like a celebration of joy. And that's another thing that I love about Taylor is that she's commit, she's kind of created this community fan base that you can just meet a stranger and just have a blast over a weekend with them because you're, you know, bonding all over all of this stuff.

And.

SCHLUMPF: Well, thank you so much for sharing those with us. Is there anything else about Lent or the spiritual life that you feel moved to share with us before we end here?

EVANS: I could say one thing to anybody about Lent, it would just be the internal

doing.

It just couldn't matter less. Like what matters is the posture of your heart, like whether you're actually growing, whether you're looking internally to see how you're affecting the people around you, how you're affecting the world. Like are you walking in compassion and love and those.

SCHLUMPF: Well, thank you so much. Our guest has been Shannon Evans, who is the Culture and Spirituality editor at the National Catholic Reporter with me, and also the author of many bestselling books about spirituality. Thanks again for joining us at the Francis Effect.