Anti-Immigration bias, Religiosity among Gen-Z men, and an interview with Jeanne Lewis of Faith in Public Life
Heidi, Daniel, and David talk about the recent rise in calumny among Catholic candidates and elected officials, they look at changing demographics in Gen Z, and Heidi talks with Jeanne Lewis, CEO of Faith in Public Life, about the recent uptick in political violence
INTRO
Upcoming events at St. Mary’s Center for the Study of Spirituality
SEGMENT 1 - Anti-Immigration Bias
CNN - Background on Haitian immigration to Ohio
J.D. Vance admits to creating fabricated stories
NPR - “Neo-nazis react to Trump’s remarks about Springfield”
NCR - Ohio bishops demand respect for migrants' 'infinite dignity' amid viral false claims, threats
John Legend speaking out on TikTok and on Instagram
SEGMENT 2 - Religiosity among Gen-Z men
New York Times - Gen Z men now more religious than women
The Politics (and Religion) of Gen Z: An Interview with PRRI’s Melissa Deckman
Southern Baptist Convention selling its headquarters
Baltimore Archdiocese plans to close 40 parishes
“Signs of the times” - Gaudium et Spes
SEGMENT 3 - an interview with Jeanne Lewis
TRANSCRIPTS
INTRO
David Dault
Hello and welcome to the Francis effect podcast. My name is David dault. I host a radio show called things not seen about culture and faith, and I'm an assistant professor of Christian spirituality at the Institute of pastoral studies at Loyola University Chicago. I'm here with my two friends, Heidi Schlumpf and Dan Horan. Heidi is senior correspondent at National Catholic Reporter, a publication that connects Catholics to church faith and the common good with independent news analysis and spiritual reflection. Dan is Professor of Philosophy religious studies and theology and Director of the Center for the Study of spirituality at St Mary's College in Notre Dame, Indiana. He is also affiliated professor of spirituality at the oblate School of Theology in San Antonio, Texas. Every couple of weeks, we get together to discuss news and events through a lens of our shared Catholic faith. Dan and Heidi, welcome to you both. Heidi, how have you been? I've
Heidi Schlumpf
been great. Happy first week of fall, everyone. We don't have smell o vision here or anything, but if you were in my house, you could smell that I'm making butternut squash soup. So like, fall is officially here, and I have an important anniversary, a real anniversary, my wedding anniversary, our wedding anniversary this week, on Wednesday, my husband and I will have been married 20 years. Congrats. Don't know how that's possible, because we're both so young. Got married late in life, but we're excited, and just to show you what a geeky church couple we are, we're going to a program at my parish for our anniversary. On Wednesday night, we're going out to dinner first. But my good friend Michelle Nickerson has a new book out called spiritual criminals, that's about anti Vietnam War protesters, and she's speaking at our parish. So that's our plan. We're gonna do something bigger later, but on our actual 20th anniversary, we're going to an event at our parish. So that's my week that I'm looking forward to. What about you, Dan? What's going on with you?
Dan Horan
Lots of things. We're in the full swing of the semester. It's hard to believe October is next week already. We've got a big conference that we're hosting here next week, Thursday through Saturday, on the life and legacy of sister Matt Oliva Wolf, a pioneer in American Catholicism, and especially for Catholic education and graduate theological education for women in the US. So that's going to be really exciting. We're welcoming local and kind of national scholars to come and give presentations on that. But we also, I'm happy to announce that there's a new webinar series that we're hosting that begins on Monday, September 30. It's going to continue on Tuesday, October 8 and Thursday October 10. It's a series called The meaning of being human, synodal considerations on theological anthropologies. And it's three webinars with three panel panels of Catholic theologians talking about cutting edge work in the area of theological anthropology. This is the brainchild of Professor Christy traina of Fordham University and Dr Elsie Miranda of the Association of theological schools, who were responding to the first session of the Synod on synodalities call for a renewed look at theological anthropology. How do we understand the human person? So they put together a group of just amazing theologians. I'm biased because I'm one of them, to put together resources, a volume of book that's going to be published by Paulus press soon. But in the meantime, especially with the Synod underway, they wanted to have a resource that people could access, free and on YouTube. So these will be live recorded sessions. People can tune in. They can register at St mary.edu/spirituality/events's or the regular Center for the Study of spirituality events page. And I'll just give you a quick run through the lineup, just to get people interested, because I know a lot of our listeners will be familiar with many of these names. So on Monday, September 30, at 7pm Eastern time. We have Ilya delio, some guy named Dan Horan and Elizabeth Johnson. On Tuesday, October 8, at seven o'clock pm. We have Craig Ford, Michelle Maldonado, hosman ospino and Todd Salzman. And then on Thursday, October 10, we have Tina Beatty M Sean Copeland and Susan Ross. So I could see Heidi's face. It's very exciting. It's kind of for those who are Catholic theology nerds. It really is. It is a powerhouse lineup, and it's going to be fairly dialogical and conversational. Each of the panelists are going to talk a little bit about their chapter in this forthcoming book, very briefly, and then the facilitators are going to engage us in conversation, and the audience can submit questions and comments through the webinar. So it's free, open to the public. Mark your calendars and join us. David, how have you been
David Dault
I've been good. I appreciate the prayers of listeners for my health. That continues to be sort of a slow improvement. I've said to people that are close to me, I'm getting better, but I'm still not well, so I have mornings when I get up and my legs are very weak, or evenings where I get the shakes and all that. So it's a it's been an interesting journey, and I have been thinking a lot about Julian of Norwich and how she thought about combining her suffering with the suffering of the world. All of that, and so that that has been a lot of my spiritual reflection. Speaking of spirituality, I'm like you, Dan, in the midst of my fall classes, and every fall, I teach a couple of sections of a course called foundations in Christian spirituality. I'm really enjoying how that class is coming together. This semester, I we have a substantial discussion portion every class session, but also at the beginning of every class, I give a little bit of a mini lecture. And those lectures are sort of coming together. They've I've been working on them over the last few years, and I'm hoping eventually to develop them into a book, so we'll sort of see how that all comes together. But so a lot of writing is happening, even as I'm recovering and I continue to enjoy the fact that we're coming into fall. Fall is by far my favorite season, and I'm just looking forward to October and spookiness, and our older kid has been working on their Halloween costume for the past two weeks already, and so that's kind of where we are in our household today. Speaking of anticipation, listeners today on our show, we have three topics for you. In our first segment, we're going to be talking about the recent anti immigration bias. And part of what we're going to discover is that everything old is new again, that this is just the reheating of some dishes that have come to us from generations past. Speaking of generations, we're also going to be looking at recent studies that have shown that young men in Gen Z are, for the first time, reporting that they are becoming more religious and are have more religiosity than their female counterparts. And so we're seeing a sort of sea change in religious identity here. And in our third segment, Heidi is interviewing Janae Lewis, who is CEO of faith in public life. And they're going to be talking about political violence and its connection to religion. So all of that is coming up here on the show. This is the Francis effect. Please stay with us.
SEGMENT 1
Dan Horan
Welcome back to the Francis effect. I'm Dan Horan and I'm here with Heidi Schlumpf and David dault. Every couple of weeks, we get together to discuss news, events, culture and other things through the lens of our shared Catholic faith. Two weeks ago, during the televised debate between former President Donald Trump and Vice President Kamala Harris, viewers had a front row seat as Donald Trump trafficked in the latest round of rhetoric against immigrants and asylum seekers, Trump named Springfield, Ohio, a community that has become home to approximately 12,000 Haitian immigrants over the past several years, parroting a baseless and at the time of his comments, debunked rumor about the immigrants in Springfield, Trump shouted to the camera quote, they're eating the pets of the people that live there. And this is what's happening in our country, and it's a shame, unquote, numerous journalists have been investigating and reporting on these rumors over the past weeks, and they have found no evidence to support the claims that evidence posed a danger to humans or pets in Springfield or in the many other communities across the nation where they have come to live. Nevertheless, the rumors persist. In fact, Haitian migrants are just the latest targets in a long history of bigoted tactics designed to single out immigrant communities with wild stories of violence, lawlessness and even the eating of domestic animals. What's more, the politicians spreading these rumors know that what they are spreading is untrue and dangerous, and yet they choose to do it anyway. In a recent interview with CNN Dana Bash vice presidential candidate JD Vance said, quote, If I have to create stories so that the American media actually pays attention to the suffering of the American people, then that's what I'm going to do. UNQUOTE, the effect of this rhetoric is very real. Over the past weeks, we have seen bomb threats and violent attacks against immigrant populations increase in Springfield and in other parts of the nation. Moreover, National Public Radio has recently reported that Trump's false claims about Haitian migrants eating pets in Springfield, Ohio has quote, energized neo Nazi and white supremacist groups. Unquote, these groups have long been spreading these lies, and they count Trump's remarks during the debate as a major win for their hate mongering on the national stage. David, it wasn't so long ago that immigrants from Europe who identified as Catholic were the target of these sorts of attacks. What should we be thinking about all of this now?
David Dault
Well, you've named it exactly correctly, Dan, and that is, as Roman Catholics, we should be looking at these attacks and not saying, Hey, close the borders. And we shouldn't be saying, hey, good, you're getting the pet eaters. But instead, we should be saying, Oh, my goodness, they're doing it to these groups too. Because if we look back in our history over the past 120 550 years, we can find that groups who came over from Europe, who were identified as Catholic were singled out, they were vilified. They were called all manner of names, all manner of slander was used against them, and there was extreme violence used against them. Part of the reason why we have Catholic schools in the United States is because I'm thinking of dagger, dagger John, who was a bishop in New York. And he was fighting, not only the attempts of the school systems there in New York to indoctrinate young Catholic students into Protestantism, he was also fighting neighborhoods literally being burned down by anti immigrant forces. And so this is a tale as old as time, unfortunately. And so there is no reason at all why Catholics should sign on to this kind of bigotry, and there's every reason why we should stand in solidarity with those who are currently suffering this bigotry, because we have been the targets of it in years past, and just because we have gained some more political franchise and acceptability doesn't mean that There will not come a time when the lens is focused on us again, and we are once again, the targets for this kind of malignment. And so there's just a lot of reasons to pay attention. But the thing that concerns me the most are those, well, doubly, the remarks from JD Vance, and when he says, As a recently converted Catholic, that he is going to use basically, calumny, which the Catechism reminds us is an intrinsically disordered Act, to gin up some kind of interest in what he considers to be a threat to normal or real Americans. Well, that's of concern, but also anytime that you have Neo Nazis and other hardcore right wing groups cheering for your use of certain phrases, that should be a major red flag. If you have those people coming to the table and saying, Good job buddy to Trump, that should raise a flag for Trump, and that should raise a flag for us. So those are my initial thoughts. I'm interested in what you all think.
Dan Horan
Well, just one little addendum to what you've been saying, David, is that there's another kind of layer of painful irony here that's odd intra among the Catholic community. So JD Vance, you know, quite famously now, is an adult convert, late convert to Catholicism, has adopted certain views within the Catholic world, some in the Catholic fringe world, the kind of alt right as well. But the thing. That's really important to remember is that the that a lot of the Haitian community, a lot of Haitians are Catholic, and so, you know, I'm thinking about what Lydia Palgrave said in The New York Times. She's a columnist there, and wrote recently about how the way that food in immigrant communities is kind of identified as a resource, as a means to other them, right? So you see this in, you know, before poke bowls and sushi were very popular among white European descended Americans, you know, people looked kind of suspect at that. If you look at other kinds of food from Asian, South Asian communities, Caribbean communities, like Haiti African communities, this is kind of something that is seen as exotic or foreign or different, and is a coded way of, again, othering and even dehumanizing our fellow human beings. And in the case of many of these immigrant these Haitian immigrants are actually asylum seekers. They are here under TPS temporary protected status because of the serious consequences of the earthquake and a violence and of poverty in in Haiti that, you know, there's actually this move to kind of dehumanize and to vilify people by saying absurd things, again, that are tied to immigrant populations, food practices, they're not eating pets. That's not just be clear about that. But then you ask, you have to ask yourself, why are there so many kind of white, middle of the road, middle USA, kind of people who are buying this?
Heidi Schlumpf
Yeah, I mean, right away I recognize that the whole thing about eating dogs was a common anti Asian slur as well. And that is interesting, the way food is used to other eyes. A couple points about this. One is, you know, not only is this wrong, David, as you pointed out, for kind of self interested reasons, like, first it's them, then it's us, or it used to be us and now it's them, and it's just wrong, I mean, and like you said, the sin of calumny, in terms of being intentionally dishonest about this to stir up anger and potentially violence. So the bomb threats to the public buildings in Springfield and the schools, this just breaks my heart, and the fact that most of the Haitian immigrants in Springfield are here legally is evidence that this anti immigration rhetoric, which began at the convention with the mass deportation signs holding the signs that said mass deportations affects legal immigrants as well as those who are here with undocumented status. So it's very concerning to me. Also concerning to me is the relatively muted Catholic outrage about this, especially from our religious leaders now generally, the US bishops as a whole have been pretty good about the issue of immigration. It's one of the political issues where they're more often seen on the liberal or Democratic side of the aisle on the issue, but I had a couple readers write to me who were particularly incensed that the archbishop Schnur of that of Cincinnati, where the where Springfield is located, was pretty slow in responding he did. There was an article that talked about his praise of the work with Catholic Charities who have been serving many of these Haitian immigrants in that area. But it wasn't until September 19, so nine days after the presidential debate, that the bishops, together of Ohio came out with a statement, really, you know, talking about how problematic This is, the person who I thought preached, quote, unquote the best sermon about this. I don't know if either of you saw this, John Legend. So the singer is from Springfield, Ohio, and he did a great video. I shared it on Instagram where he, I think he's like, in his bathrobe, and he's just talking about, like, has this been, you know, he grew up there how the town had contracted because there weren't jobs, but now it's growing, and they needed these immigrants because more factory jobs were coming into the community, and were there growing pains, yes, but at the end, he's talked about how, as a Christian, it was Jesus's words that inspired him to treat them differently. And so I thought John Legend did a better job than our bishops in calling the Republican ticket to task on this.
Dan Horan
Well, he did play Jesus and Jesus Christ Superstar. He's probably more reflective of Jesus than some other self avowed Christians are in lots of other ways, too. I
David Dault
just want to add one other voice to that, and that is from the pages of National Catholic Reporter Yolanda Chavez wrote a column last week, and I'm just going to quote briefly from it. She says, quote this call to a company is not optional, nor does it depend on which party or candidate we support. If we are truly the body of Christ, we must embody that presence that does. Not abandon that is willing to walk with those who suffer, and that in the breaking of bread reveals the unconditional love of God. UNQUOTE, I just I was really grateful to see platforms allowing Catholic voices to speak out, especially because the response of the bishops has been, I'm getting for one of a better word, it's been pretty weak. They haven't spoken directly about it. And the statements that have been issued have refused, once again, and we've talked about this before, many times on the program, a refusal to name names. Well,
Dan Horan
you know, that's true. And I mean zooming back out a little bit too, I think there's something that is a pattern that's deeply disturbing about the current state of the GOP right to talk about the kind of political tactics, David, you talked about how insensing it is that JD Vance is continuing to double down on something that even his own campaign officials have confirmed to the media as untrue and debunked. And I can't help but think about this as yet another installation, like another chapter of targeting the most vulnerable people in our communities. So when you ask yourselves, you know, Pope Francis, controversially recently described both Republican and Democratic parties in the US as not being for life, right? I think that's really important to keep in mind. I think a more positive way to look at that is neither one is a Catholic political party in this country. And so everyone needs to get their heads adjusted correctly to remember that. But then when we start asking, Okay, well, which of the two parties is the quote, lesser of two evils? We can look at the practices and we can look at the rhetoric. So the, you know, the alt right, which now controls, you know, through the Maga movement, the GOP, the Republican Party constantly as their boogeyman, point to people like Haitian asylum seekers, these people who are very poor, who are seeking just the basics of human flourishing that our country recognizes their rights as humans to receive right, and who are hard workers, and who are doing everything that the old fashioned kind of economically conservative GOP members were always preaching about in the 90s and the 80s, right, the Reagan types. But on top of that, you see the same people, including JD Vance and Trump and others going after the LGBTQ community, especially trans folks, who are the most vulnerable of that community of people. And so we see this over and over again, that the policies of the GOP are for tax cuts and support for the rich and the comfortable. And in the meantime, who are the enemies? It is the people who don't have even their own voice to be heard in this contest, in this conversation, in this political season, and so they become scapegoated, and they are then more likely than not, you know, or they're more likely than they would be otherwise, to be victims of violence, as we've seen play out both threats and the actual exercise of violence.
David Dault
And just to add some more layers to this long time, listeners will recall that before I got into radio, I had a brief career in television, and I helped to produce a documentary about the broken immigration system here in the United States, we constantly hear the rhetoric of, I just wish that they would come through the legal way or the normal way. And what we learned in producing this documentary, and what is still true today, is that there is no path for people of a certain background or a certain color to come in the legal way, or the way that some earlier generation did, that has been completely destroyed. But and now let's add another layer to that. The residents of Springfield, of Haitian descent, were actually here on a legal status. And now let's add another layer to that, when JD Vance was informed of this fact by reporters, or when he is confronted with this fact, he has said on a couple of occasions, well, I'm still going to refer to them as illegals, okay? And I just want to say again to our Catholic listeners, if you're looking for intrinsically disordered things to dislike calumny spreading false information or gossiping about other people. Catholic teaching is very clear. This is intrinsically disordered, and it is something that a person who has pledged their faith to the Catholic Church, through the Catholic Church to Jesus Christ, should be wanting to avoid, not wanting to double down on, especially when people are saying, Hey, this is actually harming people. So we have some layers here that are worth our attention
Heidi Schlumpf
well. And not only are they here legally and asylum seekers, you really, you'd be hard pressed to think of a country more suffering than Haiti. I mean, I think it's like the poorest country in the hemisphere, between the natural disaster of the earthquake and the political problems there. So many of the people who have fled and ended up here under that Temporary Protected Status legally have already been they or their families, been victims of violence, political violence, or you know had suffered, or know someone who has been endangered through violence, that's why they're here, and then to have it predictably result in threats of violence against them. Again, I was also really touched by the parents of the young child who. Killed in a car accident. Accident, an accidental car accident by a Haitian immigrant who was not legally licensed to drive. So again, not here illegally, but it was an issue of not being licensed to drive, and they went to the city or town council deep in grief. I mean, it was just gut wrenching to see them. Have to stand up and say, stop using us and our child to attack these people. And I just really think that, you know, there's gossip and then there's gossip, but this to attack people who are so clearly already really suffering and the least among us, and then have it so predictably result in threats of violence against them. It just it's a no brainer. This is not what Jesus calls us to do by any stretch of the imagination. Well,
David Dault
listeners, this is a clear Matthew 25 moment where we are being visited by Jesus in the least of these among us, and we will be expected in the great hereafter to make an accounting for how we welcomed or failed to welcome Christ among us. And so I urge you, to the extent that you can, to talk to your local elected leaders and to speak out against this kind of political rhetoric that seeks to weaponize hatred against certain groups, particularly vulnerable groups, but also just in your day to day interactions, whether it is directly with people who are coming from other countries, a chance to welcome them, or with people that have been here for a long time who are engaging in gossip or calumny, please feel encouraged to speak up and to speak out on behalf of the most vulnerable among us. Unfortunately, it's pretty clear that we're going to have to come back to this topic again in the future, but for right now, we're going to move on to our next segment. Please stay with us. You're listening to the Francis effect.
SEGMENT 2
David Dault
Welcome back to the Francis effect. I'm David dault, and I'm here with Heidi Schlumpf and Dan Horan. Every couple of weeks, we get together to discuss a variety of topics from a perspective informed by our Catholic faith. New studies out this year reveal a new trend when it comes to understanding religious affiliation in the United States today. The takeaway is this quote for the first time in modern American history, young men are now more religious than their female peers. UNQUOTE, as the New York Times recently put it, The Times summarizes the pattern explaining quote among Generation Z Christians, this dynamic is playing out in a stark way. The men are staying in church, while the women are leaving at a remarkable clip. Church membership has been dropping in the United States for years, but within Gen Z, almost 40% of women now describe themselves as religiously unaffiliated, compared with 34% of men. According to a survey last year of more than 5000 Americans by the Survey Center on American life at the American Enterprise Institute. Unquote. What makes this uptick in Gen Z men representing a greater percentage of the religiously affiliated in their age groups? So striking is that in every other generational category, millennials, Gen X, boomers, the opposite is true. Women outnumber men in terms of religious affiliation, demographers and sociologists have noted that this may be reflective of a broader trend among Gen Z women and men. Polling of Gen Z regularly reveals an increasing divide between how men and women respond on questions related to education, sexuality, family life, interest in having and raising children, and yes, religion and spirituality. This divide can also be seen in the difference of political alignment. For Gen Z across Gender, Women overwhelmingly support vice president Kamala Harris in the current presidential election, while young men tend to be a stronghold for former President Donald Trump's campaign. Dan, not only do you teach Gen Z college students, but you have also written about this rising generational cohort in both scholarly articles and in popular writing like your NCR column. What do you make of these trends?
Dan Horan
Well, they are interesting. I'll say that historically speaking, it is a first shift. It's a new development. And you know the old saying, certainly within Catholic circles used to be, you know, look out in the pews and see who's there for daily Mass. Look who's there on the weekends. It's grandmothers and aunts and mothers and children. More often than not, a stereotype would be, you know, that the father was either working or didn't, you know, stay at home instead of going to church. And then, you know, young men likewise became less interested in, you know, practicing their faith in kind of affective or public ways. And sometimes that trend would change as they were in their late 20s and 30s and starting to have families of their own, or entering middle age where their children needed to be reared in our in religious education and then the sacraments. But that has really seemed to kind of disappear in terms of a predictable cycle, as you said, David, the polling has been clear. Demographers have been clear that until this generation, at this present time, it's often been men who have disaffiliated at higher rates. Now, in fairness, we don't have a kind of disaggregated layout of how this affects Catholicism as such. But in the New York Times, the story about this highlighted some kind of case studies, particularly around the Southern Baptist Convention. And one of the interesting things there that the journalists highlighted was that the Southern Baptist Convention, very recently, reiterated its policy on women not being ministers in their community. In fact, it goes so far as to say that, like women, wives, spouses are to, like submit themselves to this ministry and so forth. So there we might draw some interesting parallels with the Roman Catholic tradition of a male only ordained clergy, right? And this touches on, I think in some ways, the ongoing conversation about readmitting women to the diaconate and the church's kind of universal slowness around this, or even Pope Francis's particular resistance and pumping the brakes around this. So I think, you know, we have these these dynamics that are at play that start to set a context in which men, young men in particular, who are increasingly less educated than their female peers, who may have limited prospects professionally or familiarly or relationally in these ways, are drawn to a shifting understanding of Christianity, and I think this is reflected as well in Catholicism. I mean, it's anecdotal in our conversation, but I could speak, you know, of ways in which I've seen this happen, and you see as well, who is attracted to, you know, ministry in the church today and to religious life. And there are some interesting observations to be made. Oh, yeah. What are you thinking about this?
Heidi Schlumpf
Well, as a woman, I can say, duh. I. Yeah. I mean, I guess I'm glad that the New York Times did this piece, and the survey information is interesting to me, and I would love to see comparable survey data specifically about women in the Catholic Church. But more than just anecdotally, as someone who's covered women in the church for decades, I see that that trend happening, and I think there's a couple things that contribute to it that's making it pretty explosive right now. So, you know, there's been disaffiliation for a long time, and a lot of it in the church was driven by negative experiences in the church, so not driven by lack of belief in God or lack of spiritual disposition. And women disproportionately, I think, have those negative experiences, maybe in part because they're they were so involved before, but also because of the sexism of in the church. And so when women have those experiences, and they feel like they have the choice to be affiliated or not there, it's not surprising to me that lots of women make that choice. And then the other issue is that at the same time, there has been a lot of outreach to men, a lot of amplifying of certain male commentators who seem to represent the church, who, again, just represent this more conservative side of the church. And when you have an institution that is perceived as itself as sexist, and then is, I think the phrase in the New York Times piece was like coded with or aligned with or seen as associated with right wing politics as well. Why? Why would young women as who are increasingly progressive, politically, in variety of other ways, want to be affiliated with that. So, I mean, there's a lot of work to do in progressive religion to try to say there is a home for you in our churches, but I'm not surprised by the actual news. Heidi,
David Dault
if I can just follow on that, one of the words that you used for this was explosive, and I'm wondering, because I'm also aware of you know, in the wake of the church abuse scandals, both Protestants denominations, like the Southern Baptist Convention, is getting ready to sell its headquarters in order to pay for some of the settlements. But also, we're getting more and more indications that diocese are planning to cut their parishes, the number of parishes and a diocese in half in order to consolidate funds towards some of this. Is this similar to that? Is this a sort of inflection point for us, where, if the women actually do withdraw from religious life? Is there going to be a kind of collapse in religious identity in the United States?
Dan Horan
First of all, we'll have to see, right? I mean, I think that's the safe answer, clearly. But I think those who are in positions of authority and power have to be willing to recognize as Gaudium espez tells us to the signs of the times, to interpret them in the light of the gospel. And you know, you will often hear Pope Francis is one of them when resisting a greater role of women in the church, whether it's admission to the diaconate or to the presbyterate, or to some other positions of authority. You know, oftentimes the response is, well, that's not going to solve the vocation crisis, or that's not going to get people back in the pews, as if this were like a pragmatic or utilitarian means only a means to an end, instead of an issue that is about justice, that is about equity, that is about the full humanity of all people in the church. And I think I see that among a younger generation of women in particular, and men, you know, not all of the men are affiliating at this level. I think it's really important to realize that we're still talking about at the margins, right? Gen Z is still broadly the least religiously affiliated generation that exists right now and certainly has in history. But I think if you look at the ways in which Catholicism has been it goes both ways, right? So on the one hand, you have figures and influencers and kind of the the odd intro rhetoric of certain church leaders that is trying to appeal to a kind of masculinity and this kind of stuff. And I think about certain social media influencers, certain bro priests that are very interested in the gym and that are, you know, kind of doing these kind of signals and stuff that are presenting a kind of tough, strong, manly church, right? But on the other hand, you have people who are tapping into this and kind of CO opting some of that imagery, but also the church to its own ends. And I hear, I think of the who's list of kind of alt right figures from Steve Bannon and JD Vance and Newt Gingrich and others. But then you see people who are kind of flirting with Catholicism to for their own sort of gain, and that's increasing their audience or influence. And we think of the Canadian Jordan Peterson, who is deeply misogynistic perspectives, right? These are things that have been recognized and reported on in terms of the way he talks about masculinity and manhood. And we. In general, and it's pretty derogatory, it's pretty condescending. And so one has to ask themselves, well, Who are these men that are interested in this? And I think that's the next step, right. In addition to the pure number reports, the pure sort of demographic analysis is to go deeper and to say, like, well, what is this population of men who are attracted to this and why? And so to your question, David, like, is this an inflection point? I don't know. In some ways I'm thinking, like, this is the, you know, may he rest in peace the ghost of Benedict the 16th on the eve of John Paul the second's funeral coming back to haunt the church itself. About having a smaller, narrower, you know, tighter, kind of faithful remnant of a Christianity? Well, it's going to be a very weird, I use that term advisedly for Senator Vance, and it's going to be a very circumscribed understanding and a very It seems misogynistic, or at least patriarchal, embrace of what Catholicism means. I have a hard time squaring that, to be honest.
Heidi Schlumpf
Yeah. So to the question of whether it's an inflection point or not, I don't know, like Dan, we'll see. I know that it's been a long time coming. So this didn't just start happening, you know, with the 2024 election or anything. So it's but I can remember, gosh, maybe 2025 years ago, saying at a conference like Gen Xers are leaving the church, and I don't think they're going to come back. And I remember a boomer Catholic saying to me, oh no, we flirted with that too, and then when we had kids, we come back to the church and they'll do it too. And I was like, I don't know, feels different to me, you know, and I'm sad to have been right about that, that the numbers who are leaving are increasing. Now what's happening is, I'm worried it becomes kind of a self perpetuating or self fulfilling kind of prophecy, in that the more women leave and the more progressives disaffiliate, the more the church continues to be seen as just like this remnant, quote, unquote, of right wingers and their Trad wives or something. But I think what we want to say here is to our listeners and to anyone who's out there, that's not true, and that doesn't like you said, Dan, square with the gospel as we're reading it, and that there are a lot of people in your generation, in previous generations, who had a different understanding of the Christian faith, the Catholic faith of Jesus's message, and that it was very liberatory and liberating, and not sexist at all. And that my hope is that whatever it means for the institution, that the Holy Spirit can still be a part of letting that message get through to the people who need to hear it. So I'm saying my prayers on that
David Dault
my beloved acquaintance, Phyllis tickle, years ago, described every 500 years, the Christian communities undergoing what she called a great cosmic rummage sale. And you know, this may be part of the kind of cosmic rummage sale as we go back into our traditions and we see what it is that we want to keep and what it is we want to give away or sell. We may be seeing part of that here. And I really do take the caution in what you're suggesting, Dan, that we shouldn't necessarily be trying to predict the future here, but rather, we should be asking, right at this moment, at the kind of as the wave is breaking, you know, what is it that brought us here, and what is it that the people who are on the cusp of this are telling us? And this is one reason why I'm so glad that you're teaching undergraduates, is because you actually have a finger on the pulse of that you're able to be in communication with people that are living these kind of questions right here and now. And I'm also very aware of the statistic that you said, Heidi, where we're still looking at a group of people, Gen Z, who is among the least religious of any human beings that have ever lived in the recording of modern history. So that also is something that we need to be sort of tracking as we're thinking about these internal dynamics within that generation.
Dan Horan
Yeah, I think this conversation is a good one, and one sadly, that will not be the last on this podcast, particularly if these demographic trends continue the way that they are tracking right now, I think there's some way in which I feel at a loss for words, because the three of us, in our own kind of perspective and analysis, are saying things that seem to me to be fairly obvious, right? These are kind of common sense observations, and in all it takes is just listening to the people themselves, listening to young people today, listening to not so young people today, who have valid concerns and questions about, what does it mean to be part of a Christian community that is not fully equal? I think that is the kind of phrasing that often is understandably and I believe justifiably expressed the way I think about it sometimes is, you know, you have these banners and these stamps on church bulletins that say All are welcome, but there tends to be, like this whole running footnote of small print about who's actually excluded from that welcoming message of hospitality. And so I think, What's the expression people vote with their feet, you know, this kind of thing, and then they vote with the. Almighty pocketbook too, and so we'll see what happens. And I don't know, I don't know. You know if this is going back to that point you made David an inflection point, if this is just another kind of step in the stairwell down to this decreasing sense of flourishing within the church, or maybe it could be, if the Spirit is active and people have ears to hear as Jesus says, could be an opportunity for some real growth and conversion, which is what we're all called to, including us as the church universal, right? We're on this journey together, as lumen Gentium reminds us, so maybe that's a good place for us to leave it this week, we will continue having a conversation about all of these factors and more. When we come back, you'll hear Heidi's interview with Janae Lewis. You're listening to the Francis effect. Stay with us.
SEGMENT 3 - INTERVIEW
Heidi Schlumpf
Welcome back to the Francis effect. I'm Heidi Schlumpf with today's guest, Janae Lewis, CEO of faith in public life. Faith in public life is a Washington, DC based coalition of clergy and faith leaders whose mission is to quote, advance the moral imperative for a just, inclusive and equitable country that allows for each of us to live into our full humanity. End quote. Janae became CEO at faith in public life two years ago after serving on their board for many years as a Catholic. She describes her current work as quote, fueled by faith and quote anchored injustice at her parish, St Augustine's in Washington, DC, she founded and led two Young Adult Ministries. She also ran for DC council at large in 2020 her previous work also includes serving as Vice President and Chief engagement officer for the National Committee for responsive philanthropy, as Director of us programs at Search for Common Ground and as a faith based community organizer in Ohio and Florida. She has a bachelor's degree from Washington University in St Louis, and a master's in conflict resolution from Antioch University Midwest. So Janae and I spoke earlier this year about the dangers of apocalyptic language in political speech for a piece I did for us Catholic magazine. So we're really grateful to have her on the podcast to talk about the really important topic of political violence. So welcome to the Francis effect. Janae,
JEANNE LEWIS
thank you. It's so nice to talk with you again. Heidi, you too.
Heidi Schlumpf
So now we scheduled this interview, which we're doing on Tuesday, September 17, and this topic before the second assassination attempt, apparently against former President Donald Trump, which happened last weekend while he was golfing in Florida. So this topic seems more relevant than ever, sadly, so there have been also been in the news these threats to schools and other public buildings in Springfield, Ohio, which is the city that Trump and his run running mate JD Vance, have accused recent Haitian immigrants of stealing pets and eating them. So how concerned are you and your colleagues at Faith and public life about political violence at this point in our country's history?
JEANNE LEWIS
Political Violence is always deeply concerning, and I'm really glad that you mentioned the connection between rhetoric So speaking about a certain population and then seeing immediately a spike in violence against that population. And I think the same can be true around violent attacks on public figures like Donald Trump as well. Political Violence doesn't come out of the ether. It doesn't come out of nowhere. The words that we say, especially from our leadership can really either stoke violence or subdue it, and so we have to pay attention as Americans, as voters, as people of faith, as Catholics, when people are using language that promotes violence, that encourages violence, because that is directly connected to acts of violence, and any act of violence for political gain, whether it's based on identity or whether it's looking for economic or political wins, that undermines our democratic process and it threatens our safety, quite frankly, our communal safety, but also our individual safety. And none of us are immune from that. And I think the events of the last few days show that whether you are a leading, wealthy public figure who's running for the highest office in the land, or you are a recent immigrant, you can still be victim to violence when the conditions promote it.
Heidi Schlumpf
Yes, and I should note that the Haitian immigrants in Ohio that they're referring to are legal immigrants. So when now we have, you know this, some of the rhetoric around illegal immigration is now spilling over and affecting people who are legal immigrants. And like you said, somebody who has quite a bit of security around him, but still, unfortunately, has been in in the target of now two attempted assassination attempts. So, so what does faith in public life? Or what do you think that faith leaders can do to address this problem of potential political violence? How can we, especially, I'm thinking about concerns about what happened in the last election, when it came time for the certification of votes and the peaceful transfer of power, is that something you're concerned about
JEANNE LEWIS
absolutely and we've been working on this for years. Actually, we've had several campaigns and trainings and activities to help reduce political violence. So we are looking this year at the safety. Of our elections workers and our elections officials. I as a former candidate, but also as a former staff person at polling places. I have volunteered to work at polling places. I deeply believe in the integrity of our process, our electoral process, and many of these folks over the last several election cycles, have received threats, both verbal threats and Feuerbach threats. Elections workers and officials have been intimidated around their position, and we've seen a decrease in people accepting these jobs and these volunteer roles. So we know there's a real impact on being able to implement our elections process when we're threatening those who are volunteering and working hard to protect it. So at faith in public life this year, we are training many people of faith leaders to meet with elections officials and talk with them about what they have in place to help create safe environments, both for voters and for themselves and their staff. And we also are training faith leaders to be peacemakers. So we have many faith leaders who are excited to use their public voices to advocate for a peaceful elections process and a peaceful democratic process where everyone can participate. So tonight, we actually have some of those folks who are going to be sharing what they're doing, and we're recruiting more folks to participate in this year's election and beyond. So
Heidi Schlumpf
I saw the press release for tonight's event right after we scheduled this, and by the time this airs, that'll be over, but will you be having future trainings as well? Absolutely.
JEANNE LEWIS
If folks are interested in serving as a peacemaker again, because this goes beyond the election cycle. They can just get in touch with us, and we'd be happy to pull them into the work. And some of the activities that peacemakers are doing. Are writing op eds, preaching sermons in their parishes or in their churches or other places of worship about why peaceful transition of power is important. They also are meeting again with elections officials, praying for them and praying for their safety, but also attending events and engaging with the press to talk about why violence is not acceptable when it comes to our electoral process and our democracy as a whole.
Heidi Schlumpf
Why do you think it's important, especially for people of faith or religious leaders to be involved in this, because obviously, you know any citizen, obviously, could it be part of trying to work for peace around our election, electoral process. But why? Especially for people of faith?
JEANNE LEWIS
The majority of people in the United States identify as people of faith in some way or another, and that means it's a core part of our identities as people in this country. We know that our faith and the values that come with our faith and the practices that we learn through our faiths help us navigate the world, help us navigate conflict, and help us figure out how to be good participants in society. So if we're talking about the right thing to do, or why it's important for us to have a healthy democracy, and we're not talking about our faith values that undergird those opinions. We're leaving out a big part of who we are, and faith leaders help us make meaning of how to put into practice all of the beautiful lessons and traditions and stories and practices that we have. So it's equally important for faith leaders to connect the dots between those values and those practices and the current conditions that we find ourselves in.
Heidi Schlumpf
Well, that's how our faith could be used for good. Now, when you and I spoke, and I and you're quoted in this article that I did about the dangers of apocalyptic language, the way it can demonize others and promote this us versus them mentality. And you noted that these are things that often precede wars, genocide and other mass violence, so sometimes, unfortunately, I think religion can contribute to that atmosphere that encourages political violence. Have you seen that? And what do you what do you have to say about that? Obviously, that's not a good thing. Obviously
JEANNE LEWIS
not a good thing at all. I think it's important to distinguish between our faith and our religions as a whole, and taking parts of it, or taking certain phrases or certain images in order to justify political beliefs. And that's what we see when religion is used to promote violence and when religion is used to encourage people to to abandon our democracy and our democratic systems. Our religions do not teach us that writ large, our religions teach us to treat each other with kindness and compassion, to honor dignity in one another, and quite frankly, to love one another and to love God. But when we take certain phrases from our holy texts or from our scriptures, or when we take certain practices and we idolize them, or we apply them in the wrong context, they can be abused and they can be misused to try to persuade. Folks that they lead to violence, and that is what I see happening in our country right now when we think about nationalism, especially Christian nationalism, and that's what I see happening all over the world, quite frankly, with religious nationalism.
Heidi Schlumpf
So you talked earlier about how everyday people can get involved in being involved in peacemaking around the election process. But there are there other things that everyday people can do in their lives to help promote this culture of peace and to help take down the temperature of the political conversation here. I know some people in their own families are facing very tense you know, Thanksgiving dinner is coming up because of different political views. Any advice about how everyday people, especially Catholics, can respond?
JEANNE LEWIS
Yes, absolutely. I think that when we get into some of these debates with our family members or friends or neighbors or strangers online, and I've been in some of those debates, we get sucked into debating the issues or, you know, differences of opinions on different ideas or different ideologies, and we forget that the person across from us, as we believe, as Catholics, is also a child of God, right? And we forget to try to figure out what it is that we're looking for in common, whether that is safety for ourselves and our families, whether that is an opportunity to thrive and to offer our gifts to the world and to live out our gifts. And so if we can listen more deeply for those points of commonality, I think that's a start, but we also have to call out when someone is naming or shaming a group of folks, like if they're trying to shame a group of immigrants in Springfield, Ohio, we have to call that out, but do it in a way that still honors the dignity of the person across from us, and that's very difficult, and it requires our spiritual discipline. It requires our prayer practices. It requires us to remember the commandments that God has given us, but it also requires us to hold a bigger vision. The bigger vision is a country where we are all free to participate, and we are all free to have opportunities to thrive, and if we can hold that vision in front of us and pull one another back to that vision, violence becomes less accessible, demonizing others becomes less acceptable, and we can find better solutions and pathways to move forward.
Heidi Schlumpf
Is there anything in particular from your Catholic faith that you find helpful in this political season, in terms of you mentioned kind of prayer practices or something like that? Is there anything that you've been relying on to help you do the work that you do
JEANNE LEWIS
absolutely. So there are a couple of things that I do on a regular basis. I am a big fan of contemplative prayer, and the most successful one for us as Catholics is the rosary. And I also really rely a lot on the sacrament of reconciliation. So confession, which seems strange to some folks, but it's not only about going to confession, it's also about how to put the practices of that sacrament in my everyday conversations. What does it mean for me to listen for folks who are genuinely repentant for what they've done, and for me to be genuinely repentant? What does it mean for me to seek ways to repair relationships that I've broken and to be really clear with others about how they can repair relationships that they've broken with me, and what does it mean to lean into the assurance that if someone is truly repentant, God can forgive us and also will give us a pathway to repair what We've broken. So I think the Sacrament of Reconciliation is really beautiful. I actually think our country needs it right now. And I think if we as Catholics lean into that a little bit more, it might create some pathways for us to repair what has been
Heidi Schlumpf
broken. Oh, I like that. That's an interesting take on the sacrament and how it could be applicable into what's going on today? One question that arose in the aftermath of the shooting or the guy with the gun over the weekend is I know that Donald Trump has made accusations that these attempts on his life might have something to do with the political rhetoric in this election season, although it's kind of unclear in both cases whether the the men involved in these were politically motivated or what their real motivations are. But are there examples? But it seems to me that Trump is also dishing out a lot of the very negative, violent type of language. Is there any are there any examples that you're seeing or suggestions that you have for either candidate, maybe in terms of what we could be doing with the rhetoric in this election?
JEANNE LEWIS
Yeah, I think the advice is candidates everywhere, but it's for all of us. And again, we learn this in our catechism. We learn this in church. Is to Be careful what you say words have power. Jesus was very clear that words have power. Jesus used words to heal, and he cautioned us about the words that come out of our mouths. I think that the violent rhetoric that we are seeing is not new. When you look at quotes from Dr Martin Luther King, Jr, he talked about violence and the use of violence as a tactic, and how self defeating that is. Other non violent activists like Gandhi have done the exact same thing and said the exact same things. So if one calls for violence, and if one promotes violence and acts on violence, that person is also permitting violence to potentially be used against themselves, and so as people of faith, it's very important for us to hold the line and say that violence is never an acceptable way for us to resolve our political and social differences, not only because morally, We are taught that it is wrong, but also practically, history has shown us that in the long term, it is not effective, and that it it implicates all of us. Once that tactic is being used, we're all sucked into it, and we're all potentially victims.
Heidi Schlumpf
Well, great advice, and I know with your studying of conflict resolution. You're very well versed on that. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you want to add? Janae,
JEANNE LEWIS
I will just emphasize our peacemakers program. And for folks who are listening, who are faith leaders in your communities, whether that's clergy or you're leading an organization or you're leading a ministry to consider partnering with faith in public life to serve as a peacemaker, because we need you in this time. The world needs you. The country needs you, and we need the voices of those who believe in a peaceful transition of power and a free and fair democracy to speak up now more than ever before, and we're happy to support you in doing that
Heidi Schlumpf
well. Thank you so much. Janae Lewis, from CEO of faith in public life, speaking to us today on the Francis effect about political violence. So thank you again for joining the podcast. We really appreciate it. Thank
Jeanne Lewis
you, Heidi, good to see you. You.